monsnoleedra wrote:I was reflecting here a bit about whether this thread was still actually pertaining to the strophalos or not. Yet perhaps it's more along the lines of her wheel than we realize for we've certainly rolled across more things and brought more things into the discussion only to move onto other things. Yet each topic has clearly pertained to her domain and been reflective of things beneath her influence and domain. Then like something consumed by a serpent it gets taken in and forms a large knot in its belly and slowly crushed and constricted as it is digested and broken down to be consumed. Yet not only consumed but passed deeper and deeper into the body to be feed upon and digested to receive the nutrients from its consumption.
As with all things Heketean, I would say that this thread both applies and doesn't do so, as we're working to define an abstract through its periphery. While that is, at times, less immediately fulfilling than jumping straight to the heart of any one matter, it can sometimes be necessary. Particularly when little in the way of defineable history exists around this particularly elusive topic.
I have this sneaking suspicion that the hoops we're jumping through in our discussions are a kind of strophalos unto itself. If you think about it from an abstract point of view, when I comment, then you comment, there's an alternating texture formed by the interaction. This alternating undulation seems so intrinsic to the strophalos itself that I can't help but feel that we're actively invoking it.
That, and you are correct - each subtopic does contribute to our understanding of the whole just as, I daresay, the strophalos is intended to be used.
This penetration towards the depths is very much a Hekate thing, I've learned, so I am inclined to roll with it. I am, in essence, inclined to follow the trail into the serpent's belly in a metaphorical sense.
monsnoleedra wrote:What gets me in trouble at times is I will take the patterns and overlaps and believe I have come to understand some truth and believe I have been given confirmation only to later be told I now need to forget it. It's like it was a truth and it was true for that time frame but it no longer is true now. The thing is the old truth didn't specifically change and I need to keep that truth under that old condition, it's just I need to realize that a new condition also exists so I need to recognize a new truth also exists for the new condition.
The issue though is that I may not always be able to tell correctly tell when the conditions shift from the old condition to the new condition. So that means I also may not be able to tell when the truth shifts from the old truth to the new truth.
I experienced this one with animals where one time the truth of condition A was correct and nothing happened yet under condition B occurred and I got hurt. Yet on the surface there was nothing as an indicator to suggest the conditions had actually been different. Similar things have occurred with some spirits but they were a bit more apparent in physical sensations. Not sure that makes sense but think I'm rambling so will drop this one.
I know just what you mean, and I expect that this too contributes to the serpentine nature of the subject matter, as a serpent's truth is held in its skin....its a truth which is shed as a part of the natural course of development and self-evolution, so this idea that truth is a permanent, ongoing part of life is an illusion unto itself. Rather, the things we interact with and come to understand are nigh always revealed as a partial understanding of the truth of the matter rather than the whole truth.
Truth is stranger than fiction and all that.
To that end, too, many years ago I was told by my Patron that there are two truths in any one situation: the one I believe and the one the other person believes. Both are lies, both are truths. That awareness has stuck with me ever since, as its forced me to come to understand the mutability of truth given our understanding of those concepts within the contexts of our individual lives.
Not always are we aware of another's perception of their truth, and it is instances like that where people can get hurt as you were. Though you and I both are rambling a tad, I believe I understand what you're communicating here.
Just my personal perspective but I think many times people encounter a deities Avatar or messenger more often than they encounter the deity themselves. But because they encounter the avatar or messenger people start to equate them with being archetypes for certain energy streams or concepts. In part, again just my opinion, I think the messengers or avatars are more willing to work together than the actual divinities at times. Perhaps even being able to utilize the "energy" of similar deities or represent similar type deities across multiple pantheon's. Which might be while some seem to suggest the divinities themselves are crossing pantheon's.
I have noticed the same, especially when it comes to laypeople who are unable to properly identify the individual entities they are interacting with. Deities tend to group up with other beings that are like them, and there are instances in which a multiplicity of beings can and do communicate through one chosen image because its essentially convenient.
I've come to view this as being a bit like a VOIP number associated with a specific phone service. You might receive calls from twelve different companies, all from the same number, as they're using a service that has a set phone number through which those calls are delivered. Same number, radically different intelligence behind it.
I recognize that the same can occur with spirits, and there are times where what we are in receipt of is the same spirit in different moods. Shiva and Mahakala and Bhairava and Rudra are all interrelated, as they are the same being in different moods. We interpret them as being different because of how radically the outward appearance shifts, but the innate essence remains the same. Its essentially the opposite of what we're discussing in this context, but this opposition, too, is part of the point.
Its a counterbalance occurring within the same context, and again has that kind of undulating black/white switch to it.
Astrological influences are interesting but complex I think. Especially in that so many various systems exist and can be so different between cultural and social systems. Celestial systems and patterns and their influences get lots of play at times but it seems iffy as well. I think in many pagan / occult systems the most common term is Mercury Retrograde and is blamed for everything.
I agree, and folks tend to both over-assume influence and under-assume influence within the same breath. For instance, today Pluto has gone retrograde. This means that it will become a part of the meta for the next several months & folks will be required to face things that have remained in the darker parts of their psychological closets as a result of this influence. Not all things will stem from this, but it is a deeper, more persistent influence than many recognize or realize.
I do not profess to be a professional astrologer, as I'm simply not. I do, however, recognize the pertinence of astrological influences and work with them in an active, intensely magical way so as to make use of their energies and flows because there is a whole hell of a lot of power and pertinence there. Those who fail to be aware of something tend to be influenced by it nonetheless.
I admit most times I give up when people include "Spirits" in a discussion in any posting. In part because unless they actually define just what they are talking about it's a guess as to how they are defining the word. If it's a person I've been speaking to for a while I can get a general idea of their usage of the word but for a new person then it's really tricky.
I can appreciate where you're coming from, though I don't give up on the conversation. I recognize that the word is used to define something a person has no other language for, and that act of coming face to face with a spiritual being can be rather traumatic.
I was asking about them and I agree there are more than one. Yet I got the impression of something else a few times. One time I got the impression of a living thing, almost as if it was some sort of daemon like entity. Yet another time I got the impression of a machine, almost like the idea of Ezekiel's Wheel in the sky of a burning machine. Yet in some accounts Ezekiel's wheel was also a living thing.
I have had a similar impression, as this strikes me as something that accumulates energy and becomes alive in its ability to influence and draw in. It is an active participant in ritual while also, presumably, being somewhat incapable of its own movement.
I am reminded of Manriki-kusari, a kind of chain weapon from Japan. These chains do not spin on their own, but when they're used actively they have a kind of innate mischeviousness to them. They respond to all vibrations along their length and come alive, and one cannot wield such a tool effectively unless they are willing to treat the tool as a living being with a mind of its own.
This is both magically pertinent and a powerful realization unto itself, as this is more or less exactly how spirit work functions. There's some control, sure, but there's also a fair bit of leeway to be given because the spirit is going to do what the spirit is going to do.
Seem's sort of funny to think your being pushed to one extreme or the other but it is the truth. Yet often I find people drawn to Hekate are loners in my experience. Which is funny because people often claim they are experiencing conflict, social collapse, conflict, etc in their lives which is what drove them to the outer boundary. Yet I often find those who are deeply devoted and bound to her are not those. Yes those type may be drawn to her for the duration of their challenge but they tend not to stay with her for the duration or go into the darker aspect's in my opinion.
The same can be said for Sante Muerta, and I don't believe that's by accident. You don't really get inspired to explore the fringes without cause to do so. Those who seek her out might do so, initially, because of trouble in their lives, but they tend to stay because they've found something more.
I find it interesting that so many equate Hekate as the crone but it's a crone who is more like a grandmother / mother figure. The wisened figure or matronly figure you look up to as a younger woman but hardly ever the truly darker and deeper figure that takes you into the shadow realm and scares the hell out of you.
I don't see the crone as necessarily being someone who is grandmotherly in the traditional sense. I see the crone as being the wizened old woman who has seen some serious crap in her life and knows how to handle that which arises on account of seeing these things before. Crone, to me, implies a kind of intelligent wisdom that can be used to great ends.
My own maternal grandmother had elements of this, though she was far too sweet to make use of those bits of awareness. Instead, she'd always coach me on how to better interact with the world, making the intelligent decision to bless me with the knowledge that I wasn't alone in my awareness of the spirit world.
I see Hekate in a similar light, as while she can totally be scarier than all reason, she hasn't chosen to be that way with me in an active way. Instead, her influence is at times more maternal - like she's asking me to show her what I've got. There's a sense of pride when I get it right, but there's also a slightly cranky "no, no, no...not like that. Do better" response when I don't.
I'd like to see more people take part in this discussion, it'd be nice.
Agreed. Too many folks sit on the sidelines for fear of being overwhelmed and/or swallowed up by it. In this instance, however, that's kind of the point...one doesn't dip their big toe into the Well if they want to succeed...they dive in.
See this to me is in error. Balance does not mean equal and opposite. Balance means that when it's all added up it equals 100. So a movement that overall equals 100 is balanced, that means one moment it can be 1 to 99 and the next 50 to 50 then slide to 70 to 30 then 5 to 95. As long as the final product return to 100 on the scale slide then there is balance. It goes back to that idea of equality and equity when people start talking balance most are talking equity when they do the as above so below thing.
Fair point. See again that "no, no, no. Not like that! Do better" comment.
Again your talking equity vice balance here. Go to extreme good or extreme evil you'll still have degree's which means a rotation of some sort.
Also true, though we have to start somewhere in discussing such a subject. I am not actually all that sure how much rotation has to do with morality in this subject, save the concept of degrees. This is something I will have to consider deeply.
The Omphalos would certainly fit. It's also tied to both Apollo and Artemis and depicted on a number of coins. It also makes me think of the Ouroboros in its representation of a serpent / dragon in it's circular form eating it's own tail. It has that start of time and end of time but will never end as time consumes itself.
For sure. In addition to this, there's a connection to beings like Shiva, who is known to have his serpent Vasuki coiled about his neck. There's a cycle of endless generation and regeneration tied into this imagery, as well as the self-consumptive imagery of the Ouroboros, but also this can also represent an awareness and control over what can be quite dangerous.
Doing so without fear is, it would seem, part and parcel of connecting more deeply with the essence of Hekate and all such serpent-leaning beings. There's danger in their fangs, but also within their coils. Being consumed and changed by that act is a deeply powerful, spiritual thing, though I would not recommend willfully sticking oneself in the coils of a serpent.
That's what makes think of the Ouroboros.
They can be some serious visions when it happens.
For sure. I've experienced some incredible manifestations and visions that have occurred concurrently. Its also a means through which some spirits manifest changes within us and cause initiations to occur. Powerful stuff, and most definitely not to be trifled with.
Depending upon the protections it can limit or restrict just how much interaction there is during the act of being ridden / horsed. I suppose one might equate it to you can actually ride the horse and feel it for yourself or you can use a simulation on a computer and just view it. Viewing it allows you to see it, hear it and possibly have a sense of feeling it but it's still not the same as butt in the saddle.
I follow and it does indeed depend on whether or not someone else's arse is allowed into that saddle to begin with.
Makes you wonder about the phrase "A meeting of two minds"
It does indeed, and I expect that might be one of the most primal examples of the strophalos concept in use. That blending of two different mindsets and the analytical abilities of each can lead to greater progress and change.
Yep, definitely a great teacher. At times I think she has far more faith in me than I tend to have in myself yet when she puts me in a position where those skills are needed I guess I don't disapoint for she seems pleased with how I perform.
I've noticed the same, and this is, for me at least, related to her function as Crone. In short, she's been around for long enough to understand when we have the abilities to do such things. If we lack the potential, she won't bother attempting to cultivate that in us.
I've seen the same behavior from other spirits, too, and I imagine that has quite a bit to do with whether or not a spirit chooses to grant favor patronage to a person. I've learned that sometimes spirits will shit-check you just to test whether or not you're at a stage of development that interests them, too, so if one winds up in such a position, it pays to do well.
I actually think that one was a long term lesson because I carried something inside me from that encounter. I was supposed to encounter the death stuff I wasn't supposed to encounter what was down in the mine shaft. I was in my neighbor's living room when I did that and my wife said all color drained from my body, the room went cold and you could feel something puling into the room with us. I had gone down into the shaft where they found his body held in the beams as a projection and never saw the thing come up the shaft from below until the first spur penetrated my back. To finally get me to break the connection my wife had to slap the stone from my hands and shake me forcefully and slap my face. I was so cold I held a hot coffee pot in my hands and never felt it when I touched it though it burnt my hands.
That bone-chilling, soul-freezing iciness is awful, isn't it? I experienced a similar state some years ago over the holidays, and I was sitting in front of a fire in three coats and still not warming my bones any. I shiver just thinking about it, but in this instance I wonder if this experience of encountering the dead in this context was a kind of test for you.
I wonder if it wasn't a means of pushing you to confront a boundary that really messed with you. Something that stays with you as a warning of what "too far" feels like. It would fit with both of our experiences with Hekate, and fit into the conceptual framework of the strophalos, I think.
I had dealt with other angry dead but this place where he died and how he died was different. it was almost ritualistic in the sadistic energy that permeated that place.
I believe I know what you are referring to. Some years ago, a friend's daughter died under suspicious circumstances that were written off as a drug overdose. I found that her daughter had been murdered by an abusive sadist of a boyfriend and she was essentially fed an OD when she didn't want to go along with what he wanted.
It was screwed up on so many levels, and there was this ambient pernicious, off-putting, stomach-churning sensation of sick enjoyment felt by the person responsible. Its a horrific feeling and essentially defined "wrongness" and "evil" for me. It was a harrowing experience, and to be frank, it ended up being far too much for V.
She and I have not spoken since, and while I miss her, she was broken by the loss of her daughter.
That one was definitely not for the better.
I hear that. Experiencing evil in that way did not do good things for my internal state, and it most definitely changed me. I've had a better relationship with Death and a greater ability to work with the dead since that point, but I'm right certain that this forced me to give up a part of myself as part of the transaction in laying V's daughter to rest.