Wanderer wrote:In relation to the Strophalos and the associated research, as I've been digging into this, I've not found much in the way of useful root sources. Instead, there's a whole lot of conjecture & plenty of folks parroting what they've read elsewhere, often to the point of making this a trite conversation without a whole lot of additional information.
Keeping this in mind, I've been looking to find instances of the Strophalos that could have been found in archaeological digs to see if I can find further examples and indications of what shape this took and how it was used. I've got my own UPG, but don't really want to lean on that when we're trying to have a historically-focused discussion for the sake of accuracy and additional relevancy.
Wanderer wrote:I've seen these dodecahedrons before, and they're fascinating as pieces of artwork, though I honestly scratch my head at the idea of them having a ritual purpose or anything of the kind given the nature of what specimens I've seen. They don't really have the look of an item used in ritual, so I wonder if its more akin to their version of the Pyramid....no burn or scorch marks.
However, in Googling this, I did find this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... oGapxsanaI
Any seamstresses/knitters here use anything similar?
Same here, as this seems like a fascinating look into the Proto-Indo European mindset. I've not had much time to do additional reading on the subject, as I was intentionally offline last weekend. In brainstorming and reflecting on this, however, I am reminded of the concept of Wyrd (as it relates to Fate)....the original term for Wyrd in the PIE world was "Wert", meaning "to turn", and it is intimately related to the concept of a wheel.
To this end, if a Strophalos is a wheel of one kind or another, then it is conceptually related, and that then relates itself to some of my own UPG in connection to Hekate. When I was working with Her and given a vision, the vision showed a light circling about Her image. This "turning wheel" of light then brought about different manifestations of the Goddess, replete with different tools and facial expressions. I've only done a very small amount of work with this, as I currently lack a statue of Her, but it seems to me that this may well be directly tied to the Strophalos and the concept it represents, given both the Wheel of the Year and the wheel as it ties to Fate via the Wyrd.
monsnoleedra wrote:That's the whole problem with this particular topic, there is not much in the actual archaeological records to go by. Any Ijnx's that might have been made were probably made of wood, paper or similar and have long since rotted away. Any smaller pottery items that might have been made have either been shattered, broken so badly as to be unuseful or been misidentified.
monsnoleedra wrote:Even UPG is not bad if it can be kept in the realm of UPG and discussed from that perspective.
monsnoleedra wrote:It's like Jade Sol Luna in his book HECATE II The Awakening of HYDRA equates Hekate's Wheel to the Chakra's and the center spoke to the Sol Caelum or Vertex Chakra (Crown Chakra). The 6 points of the spoke to the chakra's of the body and the wheel hubs as the gross world, subtle world and mental world. So you have basically Kundalini rising up through the center of the Wheel which might be equated to the fire of Hekate rising from within or inversely coming down from Hekate and descending from the Crown and disseminating outward into the body. An upward cone or downward cone of fire energy. But you can attribute that to Jade Sol Luna.
Unfortunately we simply can not attribute the prevailing UPG idea for Hekate's Wheel to any particular individual. because of that we can't trace it to any references.
monsnoleedra wrote:That's an interesting though. Would seem a useful item especially for a northern climate.
monsnoleedra wrote:Been going back and forth over part of your statement here in my head. It pertained to the idea of a statue of her on a wheel but then I though of a sundial with an image of a Hekate statue in the middle and a Map of the Mediterranean Sea. A circular map with radiating arcs projecting to the various sites and differing influences and traits she would have at those sites. Of course with the sites would also come differing tools.
monsnoleedra wrote:Check out this report from Lerna and the House of Tiles, especially seals S83 and S86. https://www.ascsa.edu.gr/uploads/media/ ... 147579.pdf
It's sort of interesting to me. If you read all the way through it sort of suggest that Hekate's Wheel is simply a Pottery Maker's mark and one of many at that. It might be either an official's mark or a semi-official's mark or simply a potter's mark. But it doesn't appear to have any religious significance. Can't even say it is connected to a temple mark of any sort.
Wanderer wrote: To be honest, that's the whole problem with just about ANY reconstructed faith. What we have insofar as historical records are concerned is a mess, and whatever remains to this day has likely been "state sanctioned" to some point or another, since a great many records and truthful indications of what would have been practiced were intentionally destroyed through the ages. Thus, what we've got is a skeleton at best, and often times we don't really even know what the skeletal structure was supposed to look like.
That one's new to me. I've not read the book, so I cannot comment on it specifically. However, that which has been claimed as the "Wheel of Hekate" elsewhere mirrors the "Helm of Awe" designs found in Norse runic magic. I only broach that here because the Aegishjalmur and like designs have been related, through theory, to the Northern concept of the passage of the day in which the day has eight parts...eight spokes, as it were.
If we then see the Wheel as being directly related to the passage of time, this kind of fits in to the established cosmology we're talking about, both with the Wheel of Fortune and the passage of the Solar and Lunar cycles in relation to it. However, I'm simply theorizing in lieu of more legitimate bits of historically relevant information.
Well that's certainly interestingly syncretic, given the concept and the "overlay" of it onto an area in which she was worshipped. I mean, that's effectively one way to take the same idea and turn it into a kind of globalization...its different from the vision I had, but the same? This goes back to that weird kind of obviousness you and I were talking about in the other thread about Hekate, though, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
I'm reminded of this statue as we're talking about this: https://www.discoveryguidedtours.com/wp ... emons1.jpg - To me, this perfectly represents the idea of getting access to different versions or aspects of a spirit through a differing angle of approach. Perhaps this is part of the uniting thread?
I'll have to give this a closer look, as its fascinating and deserving of singular focus in digesting this material, however, I notice that S74 has a similar triskele-esque focus to it, and it appears to be a slight variation on S83 and S86. All are posited as "makers marks", given the intellectual attitude of the paper, but I wonder if they're essentially the period-appropriate version of sigils, no different than what we've seen on defixiones tablets.
Curiouser and curiouser.
monsnoleedra wrote:I agree there. The further removed we are from the event the more corrupted things become. Not only corrupted but "Revamped" to make it "Fit" any modifications that a new grouping wants to have so it supports some story line or history they need.
monsnoleedra wrote:Yeah Jade Sol Luna's model is not one that is encountered to much. Which is sort of strange to me when you figure how often you see people go on and on about Chakra's, Karma and other Eastern cosmology things now days.
monsnoleedra wrote:In some ways I think, here again my own UPG and Opinion, the reason you don't see a clear connection between the Heathen Influence and the Wheel is the disdain that existed early on between Paganism and Heathenism. That was a rather harsh divide right up until the 2000's for sure. You had a lot of Kemetic, Hellene and Roman Wiccan's even a handful of Keltic Wiccan's but you really didn't see a whole lot of Nordic Wiccan's that I recall.
monsnoleedra wrote:Yeah don't know why that played out in my mind that way but it did. Sort of got me to thinking about a compass rose to be percise.
monsnoleedra wrote:I agree it probably has to be looked at separately. I don't think it would be like a defixiones table though.
monsnoleedra wrote:If you look at the one picture that goes with S83 you'll see there are like 4 seal's on that one item.[...]
monsnoleedra wrote:Let me preface all that follows is my own thoughts and UPG so no historical backing.[...]
[...]So it has to have an archaic source to give it a sense of historical legacy to tie it to an archaic past which sort of gives it that legitimacy. But is that legitimacy for the "Wheel's" sake or for the practitioner's sake? In usage it seems more to be for the practitioner's sake to me to be honest.[...]
Wanderer wrote: Exactly. It gets edited and messed about with to some extent or another, often to the point of being marginally recognizeable at best. Add to this any kind of translation errors or spelling mistakes, and things get weird(er) in a hurry. Enough so, in fact, that when working with specific spirits with established traditions, I'll often ask them what their thoughts are on specific elements of their accepted practices to get some sense of what is and is not useful.
Its led to a lot less bloat where ritual practices are concerned, and its help maintain my focus where the Work is concerned. Otherwise, its all too easy to get stuck on what was essentially the UPG of someone who lived 500+ years ago.
Is it, in your estimation, worth a read?
I wonder how much of that animosity is more modern and manufactured, as historically speaking, the Norse were pretty forward-thinking in their way. Some of them did go out raiding as Vikings, but there were also plenty of trade routes established with Arabs and eventually the Chinese, according to what material I've been able to find on the matter.
This becomes particularly muddied as we delve further back into history, so if this is a modern concept, I wonder if it has to do with the ideas that the Norse peoples were violent raiders. In a lot of respects, the Celt-Iberians were worse, as they swept through the whole of Europe and eventually raided modern day Ireland. That's where we get the "Black Irish" thing from, as they (the Celt-Iberians) were one of the major invasions.
Makes sense. I can readily see the connection between the idea of the Compass Rose and light shifting about a statue. If the Axis Mundi is "True North" within this context, then it's going to look a hell of a lot different with even the slightest of changes in course. This, then, impacts both the appearance of the AM & its manifestations.
This concept has gotten me thinking about the overlap, though I do admittedly draw something of a blank when trying to visualize this concept of Hekate as "True North" on a compass.
To clarify, I was referring to the use of sigils like what you would see on a defixiones tablet, rather than comparing the pottery itself to the tablets. A subtle difference, but an important one, and I hope it clarifies my stance a tad.
While some do use the sigils of spiritual beings on curse-related works, that's often the sort of thing that one should do with some manner of permission. Some spirits don't take too kindly to being used in that kind of way.
Hekate isn't one of them, but the point still bears mentioning.
If this is indeed something of a Potter's Mark, in this instance, then I have to wonder if this is a means of sanctifying a vessel by consecrating it for Hekate in advance of shipment elsewhere. We know that there were some pretty well-established trade routes throughout both Greece and Rome despite warring cults, so it may be that by putting a Goddess' mark on them, they'd be considered as "haunted objects" that were too much trouble to mess with?
I'm totally reaching with this idea, but after reading the text you provided, I'm attempting to take on anthropological view of this to see if I can't understand the thought process behind this. Especially given what you've mentioned here, as if there wasn't a shrine or spiritual center dedicated to Hekate in the area, making pottery for her is rather odd.
We agree on this point, as to me it seems to be a point of reference for the Goddess in lieu of having a similarly accessible point of contact for her. Its kind of like a loan sigil, being used because we don't have another sign with which to do so.
With that said, I do not use signs that look like S83 as a point of contact for Hekate, as I prefer to use the Triskele. The Triskele was the first image I ever saw associated with Hekate aside from the Moon and the baying of dogs, so its where my first memories of her are rooted. That's very likely a "me thing", but its pertinent within the context of my practice.
The potential origin and appearance of the Strophalos, however, seems to be a mystery worth poking at. If nothing else, going back and forth on this subject seems to amuse her, and I'm quite happy to entertain her in this way.
To this end, I did attempt to use S83 as a point of connection in reaching Hekate and got the faintest of glimpses at the other end of the call. It has relation enough to create that response, but I did not experience the image itself as an open line when it was a static image.
When I spun it in my mind, however, that connection got to be much, much stronger, which could be indicative.
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