The infamous PGM

[Astar_Mundi]

The PGM is a collection of spells and techniques from all over the Hellenic world that was compiled and kept in one personal library in Thebes (Egypt)...it's not a rehash of anything as it was simply a compilation of magical material with no overarching religious or philosophical paradigm.

We need to think of it as a magical cookbook with a collection of various diverse recipes from late antiquity, not a monolithic religious tome. There is no singular worldview or system being expressed other than the ability of the ritualist to interact with the spirit world.

To single out Zoroastrianism as the "influence" is a silly thing. All the traditions of the Near East, North Africa and Mediterranean are undoubtedly "influences" since it is the folk magical practices of these regions that have been recorded in the papyri. The emphasis is on "folk" as very little of any of the centralized state or canonical religions is to be found within the papyri. The focus of the PGM is practical magic not theological doctrine.

So you agree that it is no more than surviving fragments and remnants of old magic from the Mediterranean region. That was exactly what I was saying, and of course, you have failed to put into historical context the origins of the dominant mystical movements from that region. Which was Zoroastrian.

It is a direct, yet watered down and altered, descendant of Zoroastrianism. To understand this would require you to have actually studied Zoroastrianism, which I can infer from your response as too high a bar to set. The common folk took knowledge from the Priest class, who were using knowledge directly from Zoroastrian and Chaldaen origins.

If you actually knew anything whatsoever about ancient Chaldean Priesthood you would find that practical magic and theological doctrine are one and the same for them. Magic was practical engineering at a higher level than banging rocks about.

To say you have either a theological manual or a practical manual is petty religious thinking at the most base level.

Astar,

You are making incorrect assumptions and as usual your tone is accusative and offensive. I'm not going to draw out in a long argument with you, but for posterity of those coming to this topic I will say that the magical and religious panorama of late antiquity is far more complex and diverse than what you are stating.

My usual response when someone's first response is a trite Ad Hominem is to disregard the rest of whatever they have to say.
Good day.

[Nashimiron]

PGM is so trendy these days. You guys do realise its just rehashed Zoroastrianism and Chaldaean magic brought across the Aegean...nope. No historians around? Nope. I'm talkin' to myself. Ok. I'm gonna go sit in the corner with the history nerds and read a book

Lets hope no historian ever reads this post then, although it would give him / her a good laugh.

[Astar_Mundi]

PGM is so trendy these days. You guys do realise its just rehashed Zoroastrianism and Chaldaean magic brought across the Aegean...nope. No historians around? Nope. I'm talkin' to myself. Ok. I'm gonna go sit in the corner with the history nerds and read a book

Lets hope no historian ever reads this post then, although it would give him / her a good laugh.

LOL have you even read the PGM? Or the Four Vedas? Or the Chaldaean Oracles? Or the remaining fragments of Zoroastrian Clerical Rites?

I'm betting on no, considering you just weigh in without any actual Textual Evidence. Whatever, I already said I'm saying things too high level for you.

As for historians. They already have. One of my closest friends is an historian and we have discussed this many times.
This is whom I have discussed it with. People who have been on actual archeological digs in the respective countries of origin.

Unless you have some decent factual based refutation all you add is ignorant noise.

[Astar_Mundi]

PGM is so trendy these days. You guys do realise its just rehashed Zoroastrianism and Chaldaean magic brought across the Aegean...nope. No historians around? Nope. I'm talkin' to myself. Ok. I'm gonna go sit in the corner with the history nerds and read a book

Lets hope no historian ever reads this post then, although it would give him / her a good laugh.

Next time reply with an actual argument.

How embarassing for you.

[Nashimiron]

As Leonardo has already stated, the PGM is a collection of many texts from a whole smorgasbord of traditions which were all bouncing off each other over a period of time. Nobody would seriously claim they have one over-riding influence. Unless you are going with a very vague notion that all Mediteranian and Egyptian religion is re-hashed Zoroastrianism. But such vague generalisations are the bane of the occult world.

No-one who studies the PGM will say there is one continuous thread running through them from the Greek material through the Hebrew, Coptic etc to the Egyptian.

Just because someone is an historian or an academic examiner does not necessarilly make them an expert in such a specialised area as the PGM, as a recently published PHD thesis proves...

Next time reply with an actual argument.

You yourself have yet to state an actual argument and have thus far been doing no more than sounding off.

[Astar_Mundi]

As Leonardo has already stated, the PGM is a collection of many texts from a whole smorgasbord of traditions which were all bouncing off each other over a period of time. Nobody would seriously claim they have one over-riding influence. Unless you are going with a very vague notion that all Mediteranian and Egyptian religion is re-hashed Zoroastrianism. But such vague generalisations are the bane of the occult world.

No-one who studies the PGM will say there is one continuous thread running through them from the Greek material through the Hebrew, Coptic etc to the Egyptian.

Just because someone is an historian or an academic examiner does not necessarilly make them an expert in such a specialised area as the PGM, as a recently published PHD thesis proves...

Next time reply with an actual argument.

You yourself have yet to state an actual argument and have thus far been doing no more than sounding off.

Unless their area of study is literally the Zoroastrian religion, which it is.

You can trace every single ritual in the PGM back to Zoroaster and then further back to Vedic Agnihotra Priesthood.

the fact that each appears as a syncretised hodge-podge of greek, egyptian and hebrew magic does not refute the fact that all these systems of magic were based upon a singular source of ancient wisdom, who was more than likely Thoth himself, who came to teach the Fire Priests of Magic.

Add in a little sacrifice and blood and you've got the PGM.

No, there is no provable universal truth about this. I accept that. There's still contentious academic theory, however.

[Nashimiron]

...all these systems of magic were based upon a singular source of ancient wisdom, who was more than likely Thoth himself, who came to teach the Fire Priests of Magic.

You missed the most important bit, that he was also AN ALIEN and that he laid an egg out of which was hatched the baby Jesus.

...there is no provable universal truth about this...

Don't worry, you don't need proof. This is the internet. Proof is the weapon of oppressors.

[Astar_Mundi]

...all these systems of magic were based upon a singular source of ancient wisdom, who was more than likely Thoth himself, who came to teach the Fire Priests of Magic.

You missed the most important bit, that he was also AN ALIEN and that he laid an egg out of which was hatched the baby Jesus.

...there is no provable universal truth about this...

Don't worry, you don't need proof. This is the internet. Proof is the weapon of oppressors.

All the "Gods" of antiquity were potentially aliens, powerful spirits from beyond Earth that took material form for a time, not quite sure what you are getting at there.
It's a moot point and your quaint attempt at Argument Ad Absurdum is actually non absurd.

[Nashimiron]

...all these systems of magic were based upon a singular source of ancient wisdom, who was more than likely Thoth himself, who came to teach the Fire Priests of Magic.

You missed the most important bit, that he was also AN ALIEN and that he laid an egg out of which was hatched the baby Jesus.

...there is no provable universal truth about this...

Don't worry, you don't need proof. This is the internet. Proof is the weapon of oppressors.

All the "Gods" of antiquity were potentially aliens, powerful spirits from beyond Earth that took material form for a time, not quite sure what you are getting at there.
It's a moot point and your quaint attempt at Argument Ad Absurdum is actually non absurd.

I here ya bro, I myself am in fact an alien. Nothing absurd to be seen here at all.

[Astar_Mundi]

You missed the most important bit, that he was also AN ALIEN and that he laid an egg out of which was hatched the baby Jesus.




Don't worry, you don't need proof. This is the internet. Proof is the weapon of oppressors.

All the "Gods" of antiquity were potentially aliens, powerful spirits from beyond Earth that took material form for a time, not quite sure what you are getting at there.
It's a moot point and your quaint attempt at Argument Ad Absurdum is actually non absurd.

I here ya bro, I myself am in fact an alien. Nothing absurd to be seen here at all.

well that's awesome for you

anyway I see your points and take them on board. After this discussion I'm going to reread the PGM and make sure I'm not talking out of my ass.