Elubatel: Command or Be Grateful?

[MagiAwen]

..

[Zoe]

Enjoy your mountains. I can't speak for others, but I have no problem confronting this person; however, what I want to do is hurt her. Since mundane ways of doing this are legally actionable, I've turned to magic(k). In fact, the one thing I'm sorry about is that in going about it this way, she won't know it's me.

OK, back on topic.

[Noone]

/

[O Delano]

Honestly, I agree with Magi Awen. It seems best to approach spirits from a position of authority. However, if you sit there and tell them that they are GOING to do this or that, and then tell them "unless you don't want to"...I dunno, it's kind of self-negating, imho. Then again, that's kind of theoretical.

I tend to look at it in a way similar to going into a coffeeshop for a delectible caffeinated beverage. I walk in, I know what I want and how I want it. I go up to the person at the counter, who is wearing a cute little badge with a name like "Sarah" or "Mike" on it. And I say to them, "Hi Sarah, I'll have a double tall double-espresso mocha with no whip." I'm not rude or mean about it, nor am I abusive; in fact I'm quite polite and might even ask how they're doing, etc. I tell them what I want because I expect them to get to it. They're going to get that ready for me because it's their job. They benefit from it by still having a job and getting that arcane papyrus used in the procurement of goods and services...and I get a cup of coffee-chocolatey goodness.

As far as paying goes...well, that's where it differs in dealing with spirits. Some people pay by offerings, some don't. Giving offerings didn't work out very well for Magi Awen, I myself have had mixed results, and for others it's worked very well. I think spirits benefit from it either way, but what way that is...I don't know.

Although in his book 'Postmodern Magic', Patrick Dunn gives a pretty good and IMO feasible explanation.

I guess my point is, Authority does not equal meanness, rudeness, or unethical behavior.

[Noone]

/

[Zoe]

Honestly, I agree with Magi Awen. It seems best to approach spirits from a position of authority. However, if you sit there and tell them that they are GOING to do this or that, and then tell them "unless you don't want to"...I dunno, it's kind of self-negating, imho. Then again, that's kind of theoretical.

I tend to look at it in a way similar to going into a coffeeshop for a delectible caffeinated beverage. I walk in, I know what I want and how I want it. I go up to the person at the counter, who is wearing a cute little badge with a name like "Sarah" or "Mike" on it. And I say to them, "Hi Sarah, I'll have a double tall double-espresso mocha with no whip." I'm not rude or mean about it, nor am I abusive; in fact I'm quite polite and might even ask how they're doing, etc. I tell them what I want because I expect them to get to it. They're going to get that ready for me because it's their job. They benefit from it by still having a job and getting that arcane papyrus used in the procurement of goods and services...and I get a cup of coffee-chocolatey goodness.

...

I guess my point is, Authority does not equal meanness, rudeness, or unethical behavior.

Update: I've altered the way I'm wording it again to avoid negative language. You are right, it does sound self-negating (and probably confusing for the spirit!) As for the coffee shop analogy, I know the situation there: Sarah's not a slave, she can quit if she wants. Not sure with these spirits. By the way, it's not like I'm thinking "Gee, l'il old me doesn't have the right to compel." If God exists, even he doesn't have the right to keep slaves, although he may have the power to. The angels have every right to do their own thing (maybe that makes me a Satanist?)

I'm going to retire from this thread and I'll let you know how it goes.

Z

[BrotherButterball]

To compare Geof Gray Cobb's and Al Manning's

methods of calling spirits. Geof Gray Cobb

has you commanding the spirits in most of his books.

He did change this later in life in his last book.

Al Manning on the other hand told me,

we do not command, we invite and play with the spirits.

His was a more free form magic and less structured.

However I still would recommend being specific

in your magical requests.

Tim

[BrotherButterball]

Regarding the question of commanding and compelling angels.

Do the words of power command and compel the angels?

I would answer this way.

The christian bible tells us that God made man a little lower than the angels.

Reasoning from there, if we contact angels, we should be a little higher

than other men and women. Contact godforms and we should be even higher.

Contact God and be highest of all, God willing.

Some systems of magic allow for arcane admitting passwords and such,

and this would be systems like the Merkabah, which Donald Michael Kraig

briefly mentioned in Modern Magick. So, there is evidence for words of power

in the older texts. I personally believe angels serve because God wills it or

the angels have free will and choose to help, as some of my Hebrew

friends taught me.

Tim

[Slater]

Regarding the question of commanding and compelling angels.

Do the words of power command and compel the angels?

I would answer this way.

The christian bible tells us that God made man a little lower than the angels.

Reasoning from there, if we contact angels, we should be a little higher

than other men and women. Contact godforms and we should be even higher.

Contact God and be highest of all, God willing.

Some systems of magic allow for arcane admitting passwords and such,

and this would be systems like the Merkabah, which Donald Michael Kraig

briefly mentioned in Modern Magick. So, there is evidence for words of power

in the older texts. I personally believe angels serve because God wills it or

the angels have free will and choose to help, as some of my Hebrew

friends taught me.

Tim

I agree...I also see words like "command" as being very direct and unambiguous. Ambiguous intent can lead to anything from no/little results...things not unfolding as you'd planned but neglected to be direct in stating... to total chaos.

I mean we're not using threats and bossing them around like in the Goetia. Angels will tell you if you over stepped the mark, I have felt it and I know others who have been told as such by the entity itself. I think if it's working...thats a good sign you haven't pissed them off. Talk of slaves and bossing etc is taking the human condition and placing it on beings who have never been human. Respect is one thing but making pea-soup with your language is another I suppose. Just my opinion.

[Clayfield]

I promised to update on my new approach. As detailed in this thread, I'd felt uneasy commanding Elubatel, so I switched to commanding, feeling great authority but with strong respect. The rituals were amazing - they felt overwhelmingly powerful and I was sure that the exact results I'd requested were heading my way.

But, today, I found out that the success I requested has not come to pass. This was one of those plain and simple success or failure scenarios. It's not like I asked for $10,000 and only received $10. I asked for a particular success, which was within my sphere of influence and only required a slight magical nudge - or so I thought. But nothing happened. I wasn't lusting for result, but felt a genuine faith that everything would come to pass. I am truly shocked at this result.

And I am a little mystified. So many people here have great success with Elubatel, but I never get anywhere and I'd love to know why. For now, I remain mystified.