HGA - SA Drama

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HGA - SA Drama

Post#1 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:19 pm

HGA

Discussion about HGA at Viking Club’s Round Table

ACT ONE



Present 11 people: Vovin, Martialis, Nemo, Frater Yachida, Garage Mage, Frater KM, Gordon Flinn, Brother M, Mertialis, Raum and Diceman

Vovin opens it up with a speach.
Garage Mage is a student. He asked only one question.
Raum and Diceman came too late, started a dialogue, which faded away as all of the magi around the Round Table got already too drunk.
The theme veries but is generally based on the ways how to achieve KC of HGA.

Vovin - I suggest a good solid foundation in the basics of ceremonial magic before attemting your first evocation. For example, if you are not ready when You have not achieved Deity assumption or Knowledge and Conversation of HGA. Especially with respect to Goetic evocation or any other evocation of what could be called demons.

Martialis: I for one haven't attained it and think it a quite formidable task. I also think it's perhaps one of the most lucid as well as deeply personal aspects of magic(k). Some of the best advice that immediately comes to mind when undertaking such an operation is "Invoke often, enflame thyself with prayer!"


Nemo: Thelema spurs me on to continually perfect my HGA union and thus know my True Will to perform it. For me it is a bit like the philosophy of Thomas Kuhn. We quest after absolute truth but the paradigms we use to understand it are imperfect, always work in progress. Each experience of Samahdi progresses; changes attitudes and behaviours in the mundane in an analogous manner to Thomas Kuhn's model of the pursuit of truth at an intellectual level.


Vovin: But seriously, how many people are seriously living or have attained that mastery? I have met a few Adepts in my time. But magicians I can say that have attained KCHGA I don’t know? It’s all down to "You will know them by their fruits" and I see plenty of fruit the problem is its all rotten. I think my point is that the whole karma debate is nonsense and silly.. Its dogma it limits your development. For e.g you get screwed over by someone Don’t you dare retaliate as your "Karma" will come back to bite you in the ass even though this person deserves being knocked down a step or five.

Brother M: K&C is a long process, I work actively and in communication with my HGA and still only have a very vague idea of 'it'. I can say this however, from what I currently understand, the HGA is an entity you want to completely trust.

Martialis: Going off memory I think I first encountered that as part of the G.D. teachings. I'm not sure if the A.S. teaches something similar or if there's an older source which the G.D. was following. After going through some ideas on how the definitions of the Intelligences and Spirits might work I did arrive at the Sun-Moon (or more correctly Tiphareth/Yesod or Ruach/Nephesh) relationship which others have likened to the Abramelin Operation and the attainment of the Holy Guardian Angel. As you may know, once the K and C of the HGA has been achieved one then proceeds to summon the Princes and their cohorts which process seems quite like that suggested by my quotation; the Intelligence's role being akin to the HGA while the Princes and their legions would correspond with the 'blind force' (perhaps a more appropriate term) termed Spirits. All in all it seems to work well and I see both, the Intelligence and Spirit, as two necessary sides of the same coin, the latter providing the raw power which the former then directs to certain ends.


Frater Yetchidah: Ritual work is essential for the invocation, but you might benefit from sitting down for a while each evening and just talking to your HGA as if he/she were another person in the room with you. You could even use a Tarot deck or other divination as a method of getting an early response.

Nemo: Knowledge and conversation of your Holy Guardian angel is the whole point of the great work until it is achieved. Undergoing the HGA ordeal means that you place yourself in a situation where your sanity and possibly your life are forfiet if you fail. Most magickian's I know who have done this synthesise the practices of the ordeal from several sources rather then doing one recipe eg samek plus aethyrwork plus meditations. The minimum time I know of it being done succesfully is 3 months, most I have heard of are closer to a year. You will know when the time has come because it will be like in Abramelin when Abraham writes; that the more he did the 'experiments' the more discontented he was. Pardon the language but it is like nothing is good anymore; magick, pussy, parties, social events are all meaningless and empty despite the pleasure of them at the time. A stubborn and to outsiders seemingly self-destructive drive sets in which impels you to commence the ordeal, even with this mindset it is very difficult to succeed and somehow energised enthusiasm to reach up to your angel must be achieved, when you could easily just curl up and slip into coma or leap joyfully into insanity.

Vovin: My opinion is that this can be accomplished and assimiliated by the natural evolution of the magician and the "Great Work" this after years of practice and development. It would be advantagous to do the proper 6 month retreat in a mountain cabin but seriously who has that luxury? I have read ""Justin Augustus Newcomb's" 21st Centruy Mage and in it he outlines a workable method but even he stresses some isolation..

Frater KM: My views are kind of between Vovin's and nemo's. It will be natural for the magickian, as long as he is moving vertically instead of horizontally, to come under guidance of their HGA. However, the vision of the HGA does not occur until one specifically invokes it via some sort of ritual. Although, there are many Masters of the Temple that argue that true K&C of the HGA doesn't occur until one crosses the Abyss and reached Binah.

Frater Yachida: The Holy Guardian Angel and Higher Self are not the same. At least, this is what the Enochian Angels (and certain others) teach (at least from personal experience and those shared by practitioners I know). The Higher Self is encountered in Tiphareth, while the Holy Guardian Angel is encountered in Da'ath (where Gnosis is properly attained). You become your Higher Self (or rather, you put your life in the control of your HGA more than the Lower Self we're used to), and then you work with the HGA from there (which is both an external and internal entity). Some postulate a temporary existence to this HGA, but I haven't decided on the validity of that idea yet. So the HGA can be encountered in ZID (or ZIP, or even before ZAX, in ICH [as happened to the Seer of the O.'.S.'.D.'.L.'.), and encounters with the HGA can even happen before proper introduction to the Higher Self. It really is a very personal thing, and is different for everyone. Don't let grade structures fool you on this, as most Adeptus Minors haven't attained either K&C of the HGA or HS. I should also point out that you really shouldn't know what occurs in ZID now if you haven't experienced it. Reading other people's accounts (like Crowley's "Vision & Voice") colours your visions and can lead to a lack of objectivity and the repetition of other people's experiences.

Garage Mage: Thank you very much for clearing that up. I don't think I'll be working with Zax anytime soon(I'm still trying to figure out this system or get a grasp on it that i'm not doing something completely foolish.) and I do wish to start seeking my HGA soon.

Frater KM: My current development is opening up Yesod, where I am receiving a glimmer of my HGA... but that's it. I believe that I still have some time to go before I come under guidance. I am patient, though.

Nemo: Could HGA be achieved by for example working up through the Aethyrs until you reach the 8th? I have reached the 8th aethyr and feel this is so.Whilst I went through an 'ordeal' to attain it could be that this is not the only way, steady increments of progress over a longer period could I feel achieve the same objective. However the risk to sanity and even your life would still occur and perhaps the various crises that are unavoidable will creep up on you. I wonder if this could make such an approach actually more difficult because with a sequence you set some of your life-time aside, and have pretty much pencilled in when approximately you are going to have a bit of a 'mad one', whereas with an incremental approach it could all just blow up suddenly when you are shopping in morrisons or something like that. The pressures of modern life make a magickal retirement more difficult to achieve, I feel that tradition has it right here though, it is definately better to withdraw and specifically undergo a magical retirement.


Raum215: This term, apparently invented by morphology of terms in Abramelin translated by Mathers, was created by George Bernard Shaw, and is absurd. it implies something that simply gives one an ambiguous indefinite target for their aspiration. You might as well call it the "The Lunch Special from The Restaurant at the End of the Universe" - which is just as silly.
Such terms go nowhere unless you have no real aspiration of your own. Never once in Abramelin in any translation do you see "Knowledge and Conversation" as a technical term for those who have instruction of the appearing Angel - which in the system, functions as mentor, enforcer, and familiar.

Diceman: Raum, your comment is a bit strange to me because we all know that even Crowley knew that "Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA" is a absurd term, yet he keep that phrase in all his writing. Becuse it is absurd he keep it. That implies that he knew that its sounds silly and that more serious term would provoke "serious" people to build systems and roadblocks around simple Abramelin system. As for me personally the term "Knowledge and Conversation of the HGA" doesnt sound silly or absurd at all, and in that i dont understand neither Crowley, neither your comment. Term is very well writen and it is clear.
Last edited by talerman on Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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