monsnoleedra wrote:I've been holding off responding to this thread as it seemed we were going off topic from the Strophalos in discussion and was wondering if maybe we didn't need to create a new thread again. But then I got to thinking if maybe that wasn't part of the issue when talking about the Straphalos, trying to keep it so narrowed that we were missing the larger influences that impacted upon it.
By the time of the Chaldean's Hekate clearly had two face's in society, that of the Queen of the dead and Witch Craft. Yet she also had the 3 or four headed face of the Chaldean's. Yet even within the Chaldean system there are 2 Hekate's, perhaps what might be seen as a High and a Low Hekate.
That does seem to tie into the idea that gets tied into the changing forms of Fire and Water, but also of the changing notion of Virginity and Purity. But like Artemis it also ties into relationships, not only between people but also between things or conditions or stages / unions of things.
Heavenly Sigils are a pain to be certain. They might work for a given day then not function again until a certain number of years have passed. What's bad is you might not actually realize that if you do not project it far enough out or are not familiar enough with celestial movements to realize it.
Then there are birth sigils for instants that work once but might work later if the conditions set up again but may or may not ever work again.
Similar to birth sigils but are more like prophecy sigils or identity sigils. I had one that was a birthmark sigil yet it is not the same as my identity sigil. yet I have one that is a combination of the two.
Riders, Drivers are two that drive me crazy. Being ridden is basically being horsed same concept just different terms. Drivers though I hate. Those are the ones who try to jump in and take short term control and run the show but don't try to possess you. Can get you in trouble though.
In some ways it's almost as if it is a puzzle I am meant to witness and in the witnessing of it am meant to be flustered by the realization that I can not realize the manifestation of its perfection. Yes, I will strive to attempt to achieve it as come as close to it in both a material sense and a psychological sense but understand I shall never quite perfect it either.
You know it's funny but of all the places Hekate has taken me the cemetery / graveyard is one she's never really had me sit out in. I've sat out in some desolate places, but never a cemetery or graveyard. Well not a human one anyway, been to some non-human ones where there have been quite a few animal bones.
I keep getting the idea of a musical type instrument at times for this. One of the images that came to me was the Sistern that is a type of devise you see used in Kemetic religions and associeted with Bastet.
Wanderer wrote: I concur, monsnoleedra, though I've found myself wondering how much of that is directly caused by Hekate's manifestations and insights within our respective worlds. She's been strongly present for me and pushing me to explore other avenues of magical practice as a means of coming to understand the Strophalos and other mysteries...this seems appropriate given her tendencies as an educator (at least within the context of my world).
Among those understandings has been the importance of light and shadow as an alternating pattern that creates trance states. There seems to be a lot of truth behind that specific tech, but the actual manifestation of that tech doesn't seem to matter quite as much as I initially thought it did.
There's probably some manner of legitimate strophalos out there that we've not stumbled upon or used effectively, and I hope to find it some day so that I can better understand Hekate's mystery around this object. Until such a time, I'm essentially taking the lessons as they come and I am very much enjoying the ongoing dialogue around her appearance and manifestation.
Even now, Hekate seems to largely be discussed only in hushed whispers and in private settings, which seems to be a kind of disservice to her. Speaking plainly about my experiences with her is quite refreshing, and I hope we eventually come back to a point of being able to do that with other deities too. For as much as magic has been a ridiculed point of interest and suspicion, there's a lot going on within those practices.
I imagine, too, that you're onto something when discussing the "why" for Hekate only being discussed in this way:
This Janus-faced nature of hers does seem to confuse others quite a bit, too, which speaks to our limited understanding of the multifaceted nature of beings such as she. These entities are not monotaskers, and they are infinitely complex. The older and more manifest they are, the more this holds to be true, but we as a culture seem to have some issues with God the Mother as a concept (speaking from a Western view).
The more I think on this, the more I wonder by extrapolation if the Strophalos as a concept is a kind of heavenly sigil. I mean, this might sound wild and crazy, but if we're certain that there was once a specific strophalos-concept-in-physical-form, why would this be incapable of changing so long as the base understanding and function of the item remain the same?
A knife is a knife is a knife. They all cut things, but how they do so and the ease with which they do so depends upon any number of factors.
I know just what you mean. Its been a long time since I was last -driven-, per se, but being ridden happens quite frequently with the spirits I trust. These are, however, beings that I've known for twenty+ years, however, so I'm less concerned when they do so. That kind of trust desperately needs to be present if we're to allow a being to take complete control, as they're not going to be held responsible for the after-effects. Those after-effects can be profoundly world-shaping in their natures, and this ties in some to the idea of how to integrate the revelations and practices into our practices, as you discussed.
I mean, in a very real way, the things that I've watched be performed with my own two hands have at times been entirely new to me. Weird contraptions, carvings, sigils, oil mixtures, herb blends, and even acts used in rites that I've never seen before have occurred while being ridden, horsed, and driven, and there are points at which I've tried to emulate some of those things.
When I do so, there's power there, but it can at times be something you don't want to replicate because it can be "too much", for want of a better description. They are tools, yes, but most of these things cannot or should not be integrated into regular practice.
I know just what you mean. You're not able to replicate it exactly, and there is indeed a fear of not getting it right. Especially when things that come from it are so manifest...these moments create these massive ripples in the Universe, so those had best be correct and well-executed if we want to avoid some serious blowback.
Might be worthwhile, but I'd ask her about it before you do so. It could be that the nature of the application of our respective practices is just different enough that such an "attunement" with thanatoic energies would be a bad idea for you. Hard to say, though, as I can only really be witness to what Hekate does with me along those lines.
I've never sat out in a non-human graveyard, but I have attended them and worked in them.
Funny that you should mention that, as I got pushed by Hekate to look into Kemetic religious and magical practices recently. Bastet was one of the beings I've been told to seek out, and I've been drawn to the use of a horn in magical practice of late. Its not the same musical instrument, I imagine, but there's a definite aspect of sound being incredibly important.
I can't imagine a horn would go over well with a cat-related worship ceremony, however...loud noises aren't their favorite.
This concept of shadows moving and attaining life is exactly what Hekate INSISTS upon with me when I ask her about this. She insists that I do something to obscure my view of the flame or light source because its that obscuration and the repetition of the movement behind it that is sacred and manifest and pertinent. Without that, there's no magic associated with the Strophalos in her words.
monsnoleedra wrote:Hekate pushes me to explore other magic's but she also pushes me to explore other conflation's more. It's like the magic's are important in understanding her but the conflation's between her and other goddesses and how those other goddesses have been equally conflated are more important.
monsnoleedra wrote:Yet in those conflation's I really cross into the idea of light and shadow and alternating patterns and boundaries. Not just physical boundaries but psychological boundaries that separate them but also tie them together. It's like most people are pretty familiar with the Selene - Artemis - Hekate conflation yet not to many delve into the Bastet - Pakhet - Mafdet - Sekhmet conflation which ties Artemis & Hekate together with them. Especially given that Bastet & Pahket are heavily tied to Artemis for instance. Then you have the Luna - Diana - Triformus - Juno conflation with the moon influences. Which for me keeps going back to shadows, light, transitions, movements and rotations.
I tend to agree. I think there might even be multiple ones actually.
Not only hushed and private settings but also lop sided discussions. It often seems to come across as either this or that and the sides never meet. She's either the MMC of the Wicca conviction or this evil dark goddess of the Left Hand Path influence with an occasional ceremonial / Chaldean type persona tossed in. TO scary for some or to loving for others, the foreboding wicked witch of the east or Glenda the good witch of the North.
It's like it surprises me how few people have actually joined in these discussion we've been having on her in any capacity.
I think that Janus faced nature also crosses into the complex nature of the Chaldean cosmos as well. But it also crosses into the Strophalos concept as well, given it is a two faced or two wheeled construct where one wheel exists or functions within another. We assume or presume they turn in accordance with each other but what if they turn opposite to one another or counter to one another? Basically like a Janus-Head where they face opposite to one another or away from each other? Suggesting opposing operations or countering operations.
I've always wondered if it wasn't some sort of heavenly sigil or concept. In some ways I've always wondered if it didn't in some capacity connect to the two streams connected to the girdle located about the waist of Hekate. Like a horn of plenty, noting the tip of the stream and the mouth opening showing four points. But it wouldn't be a maze about a core yet the core would denote the body of Hekate around which the streams would be hung or suspended. Depending upon how it is supported you might have rings supporting it as an inner support and outer support. That or a feeder like tube coming into the streams over her shoulder and coming down appearing as a tube from above. Just something I got an image of a few times and reminded me a few times of the idea of her being enveloped by serpents that are not actually serpents.
Being ridden happens quite a bit I agree. Sometimes it occurs in such an off hand way that it's more like having some one looking over your shoulder and is like a small voice in the back of your head. One thing I noticed for me anyway is that quite often when I have a rider is that I get 3rd eye visions of things that come across almost like I am watching a movie in a theater. Sometimes it will be like I am observing from a 3rd person perspective but other times it's more like a 1st person vantage perspective.
It's interesting because it's not like 3rd eye scrying though it has some of the same imagery affects / effects.
This one gets interesting as whether it's be due to being ridden or driven what has been revealed in the physical or mental / psyche have been complete processes. On a few situation its involved both processes at the same time so the experience has been experienced in both the physical sense and mental / psyche sense as a duel experience. I recall one instance where it was basically a situation where it ended up being an inbody and out of body tethered experience which was surreal.
I had those but they are usually more shamanic in nature and many times involved dismemberment of some sort. They often start in dreamtime or journey and continue into the awakened state with your guide as sort of a shadow presence. Yet it's not uncommon to have some sort of physical marks on your body such as rashes, welts, bruses where you were ripped, torn or bitten.
Other times it's more due to shape shifting type things where you come out and retain sensations of body parts that are no longer there such as claws, displaced eyes, wings, talons, body distortions, etc.
Sometimes it's like getting a chemical set and you have a success and want to recreate that success but don't recall exactly what you added to get that success. Part of it is ego for you got praise for that moment of success yet you also got a lot of warning because it was blind luck you got that success vice blowing up the lab. So you know the teacher is now starring at you because you showed some skill but is also worried you might be dumb enough to try on your own and kill yourself for not listening to them.
I asked her once about doing the graveyard / cemetery thing and all I heard / got the impression of was "Are you stupid or something!" Which was strange because like I said I've sat out in non-human grave yards and have done formal crossing over rituals for animal spirits that went over a week in duration. Got called on multiple times to act as a spirit keeper but never asked or even suggest to sit in a graveyard.
The closest I ever did to that was did a projection with a chunk of tombstone and that ended badly. The tombstone was from a man's grave who was murdered and the women didn't tell me that part. Double murder in fact and his body was tossed down a mine shaft but got hung up near the top of the mine shaft and recovered, the other man's was not. You don't want to know what was down in that mine shaft or how many other murder victim's had been tossed down there.
There's a long stemmed horn that made an interesting sound that I found in some references to both Bastet and Pakhet. Bastet and Pakhet are both strongly connected to Artemis. Bastet via the Upper Nile and Pakhet via the Middle Nile. Both are also associated with Hellene influences into Egypt but at different time frames. Word of advice Pachet is a name confused for Bastet due to a translation error for Ubasti the city of Bast. It has nothing to do with Pakhet which is a Middle Kingdom period goddess from The Spiro De Artemios or Grotto of Artemis near Benni Hassen from the 22nd dynastic period if I recall correctly.
Something I find interesting and just an observation on my part, for me the idea of shadows and movement gets shown a lot in water (mist / fog / rain / water itself) I see movement and flow via the concentration of light / density through the reflection / refraction / difussion of light as it passes through the element of water in its various forms. Water is also a prime element for me from the notion of my birth planet (Neptune) , to my zodiac (Pisces) to my calling (Navy), even to my place of solace (around water), heck even my primary mythological creature is a dragon (water element in oriental lore), Clan is Wolf which water).
You say you must obscure the flame yet your seeing through the flame. Even if it is the reflection or product of the flame via the smoke or consumption. Wonder if that means something.
Wanderer wrote: I have noticed the same within the context of my work with both Hekate and Ol' Horny, as both are interested in the patterns and overlaps because its in those areas that we find most all truths. Both of them have, in unison and separately, pushed me to understand that most of what we believe we understand about various magical and religious "truths" as they're taught in structured religions are all limited by their individual points of view.
It is where those teachings overlap and come to an agreement that the potent magical understandings and truths are found, as the rest is all essentially window dressing. There's a curious logic to it too, as our shapes are really only in existence on account of the blending that occurs from billions of atoms congregating and shaping us into existence. We are literally the sum of that bleed effect that occurs where the edges meet, and so too should our magical understandings be a reflection on this.
That's what I've been pushed to understand, anyway. The mileage of others may vary.
Exactly! Many of these beings can be separate yet related while still being distinct entities unto themselves, and they also represent and "channel" specific patterns of energy back into the manifest universe as a part of their existence. In a way, they are Archons of that particular Archetype, and they're a means of getting to know that archetype better just as much as they're individually distinct entities unto themselves.
The same can be said for astrological signs and their manifestation. We're all distinct individuals, but we're also patterned according to how the stars reflect us. If we understand that in a magical sense, then it becomes more intelligible.
That isn't to say that the spirits are meaningless or anything of the kind, as they are anything and everything BUT that. That does not, however, mean that they're not also some manner of expression of basic elemental truths within the Universe.
I would agree, as I've been hearing the phrase "strophaloi" when I ask her about them. That's a distinct plural, meaning that this too might just be a means of expressing a Divine Truth.
Well stated and I agree. There's something about her that really challenges people and pushes their buttons, same as Ol' Horny. Those that embrace either of them often do so because they're pushed to one fringe or another, and those nearer to the center of their social group are a bit less comfortable with the idea of working with a being that's nearer to the center.
Its kind of curiously amusing to me, too, as it seems that people are intimidated by a Goddess who has more than one mood, despite that making her more accessible and more relateable. I've always had substantially more difficulty in connecting with those glossed-over beings who are portrayed as being specifically _______. That whitewashing removes the connection and the power, so treating beings like Hekate as legitimate, living deities with likes and dislikes and interests and passions is a far more realistic, useful practice.
I'm hoping, too, that people who read these conversations will pop in more and partake. We were all novices at one point in time or another, and that's often the best time to jump and interact. We don't bite....much.
And I'm of the mind that the latter idea is actually more correct and ultimately more useful, as everything in the Universe requires some manner of balance unto itself. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so recognizing that the axiom As Above, So Below applies to ALL things is a huge part of coming to understand the infinite complexity of the known Universe.
We cannot have extreme evil without extreme good, but we also cannot have little evil without little good. If we did, the Universe would have a conniption and seek to rectify this because that's a Base Truth that has to be observed for this existence to continue.
Now THAT is really rather interesting, as I've been getting the serpent that's both a serpent and not a serpent mental connection in an ongoing fashion. It has been coming up as a repeated area of discussion and conceptual hold. I'm reminded of the serpent and the egg motif in which the serpent is wrapped about the egg (see the omphalos).
Here again we have that striping factor in which there's an alternation between textures as a means to magical potency, too.
I hadn't considered this idea of getting a vision as an aspect of being ridden, but that does make a lot of sense given the experience and its nature. I've had identical experiences in addition to having beings hop on for the sake of more or less autonomous interactions. Framing each of these interactions as being related to being ridden actually createst he means through which we can more readily cultivate that kind of connection, since it reforms the kind of barriers we choose to create.
This does, too, correlate with something I'd noticed prior: protection work does tend to insulate oneself from such instances of spiritual connection. If protection is focused on keeping that kind of intersonal spiritual interaction from occurring, then visionary experiences, too, would be limited in their scope.
This concept could well be seen as a blending of essence from two beings as a means of achieving growth and spiritual development, as that would make a whole lot of sense in this context. That could well be a part of the mystery of the strophalos, thinking this through.
I suspect you are correct, and in those instances sometimes the instructor is the one that caused you to do whatever you did, so the act of determining whether or not you can recreate what they just did using you is a test unto itself. Hekate seems to love that process with me, and I enjoy it equally as it shows me where I am less skilled, less able, and more in need of greater internal change & more instruction.
In this regard, I hold Hekate in a place of utmost respect. She is many things, and an excellent teacher is very much on that list.
That is indeed a rather interesting response from her, considering the circumstances and the rather volatile nature of the energy associated with a murdered man's tombstone. Particularly given the circumstances you'd described, though frankly none of this comes as a surprise to me.
I've had similar experiences in working with the angry, dispossessed, wronged dead, and they are definitely crazy in their own right. The places in which such deaths occurred, too, are traumatized by their very nature.
That kind of experience changes you, and not often for the better.
monsnoleedra wrote:I was reflecting here a bit about whether this thread was still actually pertaining to the strophalos or not. Yet perhaps it's more along the lines of her wheel than we realize for we've certainly rolled across more things and brought more things into the discussion only to move onto other things. Yet each topic has clearly pertained to her domain and been reflective of things beneath her influence and domain. Then like something consumed by a serpent it gets taken in and forms a large knot in its belly and slowly crushed and constricted as it is digested and broken down to be consumed. Yet not only consumed but passed deeper and deeper into the body to be feed upon and digested to receive the nutrients from its consumption.
monsnoleedra wrote:What gets me in trouble at times is I will take the patterns and overlaps and believe I have come to understand some truth and believe I have been given confirmation only to later be told I now need to forget it. It's like it was a truth and it was true for that time frame but it no longer is true now. The thing is the old truth didn't specifically change and I need to keep that truth under that old condition, it's just I need to realize that a new condition also exists so I need to recognize a new truth also exists for the new condition.
The issue though is that I may not always be able to tell correctly tell when the conditions shift from the old condition to the new condition. So that means I also may not be able to tell when the truth shifts from the old truth to the new truth.
I experienced this one with animals where one time the truth of condition A was correct and nothing happened yet under condition B occurred and I got hurt. Yet on the surface there was nothing as an indicator to suggest the conditions had actually been different. Similar things have occurred with some spirits but they were a bit more apparent in physical sensations. Not sure that makes sense but think I'm rambling so will drop this one.
Just my personal perspective but I think many times people encounter a deities Avatar or messenger more often than they encounter the deity themselves. But because they encounter the avatar or messenger people start to equate them with being archetypes for certain energy streams or concepts. In part, again just my opinion, I think the messengers or avatars are more willing to work together than the actual divinities at times. Perhaps even being able to utilize the "energy" of similar deities or represent similar type deities across multiple pantheon's. Which might be while some seem to suggest the divinities themselves are crossing pantheon's.
Astrological influences are interesting but complex I think. Especially in that so many various systems exist and can be so different between cultural and social systems. Celestial systems and patterns and their influences get lots of play at times but it seems iffy as well. I think in many pagan / occult systems the most common term is Mercury Retrograde and is blamed for everything.
I admit most times I give up when people include "Spirits" in a discussion in any posting. In part because unless they actually define just what they are talking about it's a guess as to how they are defining the word. If it's a person I've been speaking to for a while I can get a general idea of their usage of the word but for a new person then it's really tricky.
I was asking about them and I agree there are more than one. Yet I got the impression of something else a few times. One time I got the impression of a living thing, almost as if it was some sort of daemon like entity. Yet another time I got the impression of a machine, almost like the idea of Ezekiel's Wheel in the sky of a burning machine. Yet in some accounts Ezekiel's wheel was also a living thing.
Seem's sort of funny to think your being pushed to one extreme or the other but it is the truth. Yet often I find people drawn to Hekate are loners in my experience. Which is funny because people often claim they are experiencing conflict, social collapse, conflict, etc in their lives which is what drove them to the outer boundary. Yet I often find those who are deeply devoted and bound to her are not those. Yes those type may be drawn to her for the duration of their challenge but they tend not to stay with her for the duration or go into the darker aspect's in my opinion.
I find it interesting that so many equate Hekate as the crone but it's a crone who is more like a grandmother / mother figure. The wisened figure or matronly figure you look up to as a younger woman but hardly ever the truly darker and deeper figure that takes you into the shadow realm and scares the hell out of you.
I'd like to see more people take part in this discussion, it'd be nice.
See this to me is in error. Balance does not mean equal and opposite. Balance means that when it's all added up it equals 100. So a movement that overall equals 100 is balanced, that means one moment it can be 1 to 99 and the next 50 to 50 then slide to 70 to 30 then 5 to 95. As long as the final product return to 100 on the scale slide then there is balance. It goes back to that idea of equality and equity when people start talking balance most are talking equity when they do the as above so below thing.
Again your talking equity vice balance here. Go to extreme good or extreme evil you'll still have degree's which means a rotation of some sort.
The Omphalos would certainly fit. It's also tied to both Apollo and Artemis and depicted on a number of coins. It also makes me think of the Ouroboros in its representation of a serpent / dragon in it's circular form eating it's own tail. It has that start of time and end of time but will never end as time consumes itself.
That's what makes think of the Ouroboros.
They can be some serious visions when it happens.
Depending upon the protections it can limit or restrict just how much interaction there is during the act of being ridden / horsed. I suppose one might equate it to you can actually ride the horse and feel it for yourself or you can use a simulation on a computer and just view it. Viewing it allows you to see it, hear it and possibly have a sense of feeling it but it's still not the same as butt in the saddle.
Makes you wonder about the phrase "A meeting of two minds"
Yep, definitely a great teacher. At times I think she has far more faith in me than I tend to have in myself yet when she puts me in a position where those skills are needed I guess I don't disapoint for she seems pleased with how I perform.
I actually think that one was a long term lesson because I carried something inside me from that encounter. I was supposed to encounter the death stuff I wasn't supposed to encounter what was down in the mine shaft. I was in my neighbor's living room when I did that and my wife said all color drained from my body, the room went cold and you could feel something puling into the room with us. I had gone down into the shaft where they found his body held in the beams as a projection and never saw the thing come up the shaft from below until the first spur penetrated my back. To finally get me to break the connection my wife had to slap the stone from my hands and shake me forcefully and slap my face. I was so cold I held a hot coffee pot in my hands and never felt it when I touched it though it burnt my hands.
I had dealt with other angry dead but this place where he died and how he died was different. it was almost ritualistic in the sadistic energy that permeated that place.
That one was definitely not for the better.
Wanderer wrote: As with all things Heketean, I would say that this thread both applies and doesn't do so, as we're working to define an abstract through its periphery. While that is, at times, less immediately fulfilling than jumping straight to the heart of any one matter, it can sometimes be necessary. Particularly when little in the way of defineable history exists around this particularly elusive topic.
I have this sneaking suspicion that the hoops we're jumping through in our discussions are a kind of strophalos unto itself. If you think about it from an abstract point of view, when I comment, then you comment, there's an alternating texture formed by the interaction. This alternating undulation seems so intrinsic to the strophalos itself that I can't help but feel that we're actively invoking it.
That, and you are correct - each subtopic does contribute to our understanding of the whole just as, I daresay, the strophalos is intended to be used.
This penetration towards the depths is very much a Hekate thing, I've learned, so I am inclined to roll with it. I am, in essence, inclined to follow the trail into the serpent's belly in a metaphorical sense.
I know just what you mean, and I expect that this too contributes to the serpentine nature of the subject matter, as a serpent's truth is held in its skin....its a truth which is shed as a part of the natural course of development and self-evolution, so this idea that truth is a permanent, ongoing part of life is an illusion unto itself. Rather, the things we interact with and come to understand are nigh always revealed as a partial understanding of the truth of the matter rather than the whole truth.
Truth is stranger than fiction and all that.
To that end, too, many years ago I was told by my Patron that there are two truths in any one situation: the one I believe and the one the other person believes. Both are lies, both are truths. That awareness has stuck with me ever since, as its forced me to come to understand the mutability of truth given our understanding of those concepts within the contexts of our individual lives.
I admit most times I give up when people include "Spirits" in a discussion in any posting. In part because unless they actually define just what they are talking about it's a guess as to how they are defining the word. If it's a person I've been speaking to for a while I can get a general idea of their usage of the word but for a new person then it's really tricky.
I can appreciate where you're coming from, though I don't give up on the conversation. I recognize that the word is used to define something a person has no other language for, and that act of coming face to face with a spiritual being can be rather traumatic.
I have had a similar impression, as this strikes me as something that accumulates energy and becomes alive in its ability to influence and draw in. It is an active participant in ritual while also, presumably, being somewhat incapable of its own movement.
I am reminded of Manriki-kusari, a kind of chain weapon from Japan. These chains do not spin on their own, but when they're used actively they have a kind of innate mischeviousness to them. They respond to all vibrations along their length and come alive, and one cannot wield such a tool effectively unless they are willing to treat the tool as a living being with a mind of its own.
This is both magically pertinent and a powerful realization unto itself, as this is more or less exactly how spirit work functions. There's some control, sure, but there's also a fair bit of leeway to be given because the spirit is going to do what the spirit is going to do.
I don't see the crone as necessarily being someone who is grandmotherly in the traditional sense. I see the crone as being the wizened old woman who has seen some serious crap in her life and knows how to handle that which arises on account of seeing these things before. Crone, to me, implies a kind of intelligent wisdom that can be used to great ends.
My own maternal grandmother had elements of this, though she was far too sweet to make use of those bits of awareness. Instead, she'd always coach me on how to better interact with the world, making the intelligent decision to bless me with the knowledge that I wasn't alone in my awareness of the spirit world.
I see Hekate in a similar light, as while she can totally be scarier than all reason, she hasn't chosen to be that way with me in an active way. Instead, her influence is at times more maternal - like she's asking me to show her what I've got. There's a sense of pride when I get it right, but there's also a slightly cranky "no, no, no...not like that. Do better" response when I don't.
Agreed. Too many folks sit on the sidelines for fear of being overwhelmed and/or swallowed up by it. In this instance, however, that's kind of the point...one doesn't dip their big toe into the Well if they want to succeed...they dive in.
For sure. I've experienced some incredible manifestations and visions that have occurred concurrently. Its also a means through which some spirits manifest changes within us and cause initiations to occur. Powerful stuff, and most definitely not to be trifled with.
It does indeed, and I expect that might be one of the most primal examples of the strophalos concept in use. That blending of two different mindsets and the analytical abilities of each can lead to greater progress and change.
I've noticed the same, and this is, for me at least, related to her function as Crone. In short, she's been around for long enough to understand when we have the abilities to do such things. If we lack the potential, she won't bother attempting to cultivate that in us.
I've seen the same behavior from other spirits, too, and I imagine that has quite a bit to do with whether or not a spirit chooses to grant favor patronage to a person. I've learned that sometimes spirits will shit-check you just to test whether or not you're at a stage of development that interests them, too, so if one winds up in such a position, it pays to do well.
That bone-chilling, soul-freezing iciness is awful, isn't it? I experienced a similar state some years ago over the holidays, and I was sitting in front of a fire in three coats and still not warming my bones any. I shiver just thinking about it, but in this instance I wonder if this experience of encountering the dead in this context was a kind of test for you.
I wonder if it wasn't a means of pushing you to confront a boundary that really messed with you. Something that stays with you as a warning of what "too far" feels like. It would fit with both of our experiences with Hekate, and fit into the conceptual framework of the strophalos, I think.
That one was definitely not for the better.
I hear that. Experiencing evil in that way did not do good things for my internal state, and it most definitely changed me. I've had a better relationship with Death and a greater ability to work with the dead since that point, but I'm right certain that this forced me to give up a part of myself as part of the transaction in laying V's daughter to rest.
monsnoleedra wrote:This whole topic keeps wrapping itself back in upon itself for me in multiple ways but the biggest keeps appearing to be the idea of the strophalos being a pin wheel or key wheel that marks a demarcation point that lies on its side. It's serpentine but we are mistaken in the assumption that it spins inward only. For I keep getting this imagery of a two conned image with one serpent head boring downward are the head rotates but a second serpent head boring upward and away in the opposite direction as the wheel rotates. Almost as if a voice plays in my mind that I hold sway in three directions or places and to focus upon a singular is to miss the movement in the other.
If we focus upon the wheel's downward motion and push then we ignore the opposite rise of energy being generated. Sort of the idea that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. What if for the strophalos movement there is in fact an opposite and equal creation? Like a top being pulled, with force being generated upward and downward.
She keeps showing me water being dumped or running from her waist at times and tells me where does the air go that is being pushed away blow the flow? It has to go to the side and up and away. When we apply smoke to it, the smoke rises and the water sinks, all above and below the spinning disk.
Think about that, the Serpents truth is held in its skin. Well that and the idea of there is the idea of two truths in any situation, the one we believe and the other persons. But like you said, realistically both are lies, both are truths. It's all a matter of perspective and our individual understanding of things.
One thing for sure the Strophalos is a serpent that is holding its truth in its skin but what is that truth?
does not merit the energy to continue the exchange. If I am invested in the discussion then I'll make the effort to discover how the person is using the term and reach a point of understanding to continue the discussion.
Though I also admit the language and voice the person is using will also influence how I respond as well. If a person is truly in trouble I may try to aide them where if the person is coming across as entitled or mouthy then I will often just ignore and move on. I may have even invested myself into aiding them at one time but get "Guided" to move on and have that happen as well.
I've gotten that sensation regarding Iynx's a few times. Add enough energy and purpose to them and they for a bit can become "alive" for the duration of their function. Add enough of them together and they can almost become a living being with a group mind or purpose. I've wondered if you could put enough strophalos' in an area and actually make them large enough to use as say water wheels, fan wheels activated by heat, etc could they then be "Alive" in some sense. They wouldn't sing in the sense that a Iynx would but would they make some song or sound of their own via the elements they'd be moving.
I agree the crone stage is the intelligent aged wisdom that comes with life and experience of the old woman imagery. I don't see her specifically as "scary" in the sense of being mean and evil but it's a different type of scary. Usually a no none sense type of thing which tends to be scary in its own right. Not going to mince words when you done wrong but tell you straight up you did wrong. If your doing something stupid or getting ready to do something stupid will let you do it then say something like "Bet you won't do that again will you!" and you can hear "That was stupid" in her voice though she didn't say it.
She's got the kind of hands that shake at times, but can be deathly still when you've got a knife in them cutting something or she's holding her hands over yours showing you how to do something. Hands that seem frail but sting the heck out of you when she smacks your hands or fingers if you don't do something exactly as she's showing you.
Being more Shamanic in focus I've probably had more earthly type spirits appear. Yet once I was sitting in the forest on some rock outcroppings that were mostly granite at the time when this spirit appeared in my mind. First time I tried to have a speak with one of the Stone People. Was an interesting situation very different from any plant spirit.
I still wonder at times about the idea of the meeting of two minds and blending of two minds. I've had guides who used the idea in the sense of putting one mind in another body. Really creates some issues of different mindsets.
Don't know whether it's the crone or just the idea of the teacher to be honest. I've seen so called Crone's who placate and praise because it's the Grandmotherly thing to do. Doesn't matter if their charge is actually capable or not, they praise them and encourage them. Same as teachers who encourage. If I look at how many who claim Hekate and make the same claims of her support and encouragement it makes you question at times. But then I also recognize wishful thinking and her telling me she has to encourage them as well, along with a little "Remember I didn't kill them either though!"
I think in the end though it might come down to the "Shit-Checks" as you mentioned to test you. Whether they are to see if you've progressed or just to see if your good enough to get into the actual class I don't know. I admit there have been days though where I wouldn't have minded being left in pre-school with the other not selected students he he he But then again she and the others who selected me never gave me that option.
I admit that bone chill actually prepared me for another chilling incident years later. Not quite the same set up but still screwed up.[....]
Yeah that one changed me and forced me to give up a part of myself. Unfortunately I think it also forced me to take on a part that wasn't me either for quite some time before I got ride of it.
Wanderer wrote: It does indeed, and it feels a bit like a serpent roiling about itself or collapsing in about itself as a part of the process of continually regenerating and redefining itself. That, too, fits with my own experiences of Hekate as a being, however, as that process of recycling information and energy through different lenses, too, is part of the magic itself.
The imagery you shared with me does fit some, too, as I've seen both a twin-haded serpent and a pair of them in the shape of Pisces....one swimming downwards, one upwards as a means of connecting the heavens with the underworld. Its an interesting bit of imagery that's stuck with me for a good time now.
This fits with the water and smoke concept, too, as there's a rotation that happens above and one that happens below. Its made meditating with and on her rather interesting.
Well-put and I would posit that a serpent has two truths: one above the skin, one below it. So a serpent essentially encases that duality and is encased within it too. Perspective then changes on account of the shedding of skin, as it is at that point when a new truth is developed and kept hidden (and a new one is shown).
Oh, definitely. There's a certain resonance that's achieved by and through repetition, so the involvement of multiple versions of the same can make a world of difference. There's a certain pertinence to the creation of multiplicities of this kind.
Its interesting, too, that you should mention the hive mind concept here, as Hekate has insisted that I begin to look at hive mind mechanics in my work with her. Some of the dead that follow her are connected in such a way, and their hive-mindedness is part of what causes them to respond fluidly and rapidly. Very interesting, and it leads me to believe that the strophalos may actually be both a means of gaining connection to that greater whole and a harmonizing force wrapped up in one.
You get it. That's my view as well, as she's the sweet old lady that you do not screw with because she knows what's what. I think of an aged Lyudmila Pavlichenko: potentially scary beyond all reason, but generally without cause to be because those crones have already seen some of the worst the world has to offer and thus don't mince words. They also don't get out bed to do crazy things unless its actually necessary to do so, which can make them seem recalcitrant and hard to reach.
Hekate's gotten into those modes with me too. There's a sense of nodding disapproval off in the distance, but she'll still let you screw up if that's what it takes to learn. Whenever she feels the need to throw a metaphorical chancla at me, its because I'm straying a bit too far for her patience.
Agreed. We're both in that mode, as we've been at this for a while and thus have more impressions and experiences to share. That comes with 10, 20, 30 years of work and work experience, but its not like either of us are the be-all, end-all grand poobahs of all things Heketean.
Frankly, I'm not dumb enough to claim as much.
It really does. The experience of connecting with a mind/intelligence foreign to your own can be rather disharmonic and jarring, but over time you get used to it and learn to roll with the state change that comes along with it.
Its temporary, but the effects are not.
Both, probably, as there's a difference between a bright-eyed, bushy-tailed teacher and an old, grizzled teacher whose seen way too many students do stupid things in their classroom. Older teachers have essentially seen it all before, and so they're often more aware of the traps and pitfalls one could run into when working through one project or another.
Hekate has definitely encouraged me at times, but there are points at which her response is more "eh, you did an ok job....do better next time." I've had a few instances of "well, alright...a little surprised that worked. Well done" too, so there's definitely a merit component at play too.
Some folks can only handle praise and it being witheld, so I would expect that they'd learn less if those are the only modalities through which a person can function. That's where the shit-checks come in, too, as those that pass the intro test are able to gain access to the test. If not, "try again later" is often the response, as if you can't get in the door, you're not going to be able to handle what happens later.
In a lot of ways, that's how evocation works too. There's a limit to what one can discover in books, and when that apex is reached, that's not an end to all that one can do, its an end to all that one can do with a book and its an invitation to start delving a bit more deeply. One can kick and scratch at that door all they like, but if they haven't the skill to open it, tough.
That sounds like a horrifying experience, but you're not at all alone there. I too encountered a wolf on the roads when driving between Phoenix and Tucson. Like yours, massive, black, red eyed and ran alongside the car during a duststorm. I was in the midst of a move at the time, and I was in the process of driving out to visit a friend, taking the I-10 out of town.
All I felt was rage, and there was this bone-chilling heat to be felt. Visibility was crap and there was no light to be seen thanks to the dust storm, since it engulfed everything and made it nigh impossible to drive. When the haboob broke, it was gone, but that experience stayed with me.
I know just what you mean, and while I can't say its not worth the trade, there's a high price to pay for something that's ultimately a service to others rather than a self-serving consideration or development. The price is crazy high at points, so this is in a way a word of warning to those who are considering developing an interest in necromantic practices.
monsnoleedra wrote:Been having some thoughts on this that keep pushing closer and closer to the actual idea of the Strophalos being more symbolic of an actual living creature. Not only a living creature but perhaps one that might just have been at Lagina or other sites that were both associated with not only Hekate but perhaps fertility rites in general.[...]
I wonder at times if the idea of a new skin doesn't also symbolically elude to the idea that time changes all things. That we have to let go of the old and be willing to change in our new settings / knowledge. If we don't our old skin / surroundings will become restrictive / binding upon us.
Unfortunately serpents shadow side doesn't reveal that the old skin tears and rips if its not dropped. It can survive within that skin though it doesn't grow with ease and binds and hinders the remaining life.
Yeap, definitely do not feel like playing whack-a-mole with me being in the role of the mole he he he I've gotten into that position enough through accident or mistake sure am not aiming to get there through hubris
I've had a few instances where I did things and the effects had passed and I though it was all behind me. Then it would be weeks maybe even months later and I'd be asleep or even sort of day dreaming and then find the effect would hit again. I had done a shape-shifting thing once and it was a strange one as the effects lingered for sometime afterwards. MY guide had warned about it so I was expecting it. Yet it was probably a month later when I had been sort of day dreaming as I sat outside when a residual shift occurred. Wasn't expecting it and it went real quick as a shift. Unfortunately, the shift itself lasted for sometime which really messed with the senses during it. Nothing like trying to ground yourself when your senses are on overload and not working correctly.
Unfortunately you can never "explain" things like that to people and make them understand it. People want to experience things but want it to be safe and to a degree sterile. However, we seldom get to have it our way and the spirit world has a direct dial feature when it wants.
It's perhaps ironic but in my experience it's been the old grizzled teacher that was more likely to let you do the experiment that would cause the lab to explode. The bright eyed bushy tailed teacher is to afraid his / her student might get hurt to take the chance or allow the student to experiment.
Unfortunately it was also my experience as an instructor / teacher that as we spent more time in the lab / classroom we came to loose some of our care about getting the students through. We heard so many excuses (I taught adults and taught military schools) that you sort of got burnt out trying to be concerned towards your students at times. Not towards their safety of course we cared about that but pushing them that extra step as many just did the bare minimum and took the simplest route they could.
I've gotten that as well. I think in part because she expected me to do more but I took a simpler approach than she expected. Not specifically that it was lessor but that it was simpler so that made it less challenging as a learning experience. I've had a few situations where it came back to bite me where the simpler faster method was not the better method. So in the long run if I had taken the longer slower method I would have discovered the deeper issue that was causing the problem not just the surface issue that was a by-product of it.
Man being in the military for nearly 24 years I definitely had my fair share of that type of Sailor. Young kids who could only handle being praised or having it withheld as a motivator in order to function. That was a major generation shift we saw come through between those of us who were in during the late 70's through the 80's and what we saw come in through the 90's and 2000's.
Ironically though that's the same change many of us saw in the pagan / occult community as well. The mindset of the late 70's, 80's and early 90's was quite different from what I encountered by the late 90's through the 2000's, 2010's and how people did things and wanted things. Even in the military many pagans I knew through those times said prove you want it and challenged you. By the end of the 90's and into the 2000's we started hearing you have no right to challenge us but should be just giving it to us and telling us we're doing a good job, you owe it to us. Saw more than a few who just went silent because of that attitude.
Funny thing there is one can read a book or one can learn to "READ" the book. But you actually have to know how to read the book. Lots of the older books actually had cipher books to them. Well the groups I knew said they did but who knows anymore.
Out in Phoenix that almost sounds like a Skinwalker.
Either way though those things are awful critters to encounter. They always seem to come out of nowhere and no matter how fast you speed up they keep pace with your car. If they can lock eyes with you I swear they got you, almost vampiric in that regard. Well that is how it hangs in my mind from that night.
Crazy part is I don't remember when it turned necromantic in practice it just did. So it sort of becomes a question of do you seek it out or does it seek you out?
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