The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Syncretic Egyptian / Graeco-Roman magic from the collection of texts known as the Papyri Graecae Magicae.
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Nashimiron
Adeptus Minor
Posts: 511

Re: The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Post#51 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:13 am

nipha333 wrote:But the results the ritual gives, and the underlying philosophy, which i mentioned above concerning the gnostic ideas of Setheus and the creation of Aeons.. says it is not an osiris ritual. Again reading with eyes closed as you said would probably be the only way you can miss the Typhonic names in the voces magikae of the text or the name abrasax. Or the fact that nothing other than a name that doesnt fit indicates osiris or the ideas of his mythology in any way.


There is certainly a Samaritan Gnostic link here. Interestingly enough, it was in one of the Gnostic texts that I found a way to fudge it (as a purely intellectual exercise of course) to make the Headless One be the supreme Unbegotten God ( = The Bornless One). I'll have to check which text it is in later. The text says the gods have no bodies, only heads, which are the stars. And where the supreme god is there are no stars .'. no head .'. Headless God = Bornless One. :angelic

The Moses as Egyptian high priest mythos also fits nicely for Samaritan Gnostics trying to route their religion into an ur-religion mystery tradition through that of their Egyptian hosts.

The underlying symbolism all fits Osiris, and is covered succinctly in my go to quote on the subject here:

The Enigmatic Netherworld Books of the Solar-Osirian Unity

OK, I've done the Osiris bit, and I know some of the Divine Names occur in invocations addressed to Set/Typhon. But which names in particular, and what is the link, or what do they mean?

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nipha333
Philosophus
Posts: 445

Re: The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Post#52 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:21 pm

Magister C wrote:If we wait long enough, I'm sure we will see comments about Osiris being Transgender, after all he did fine without a penis. :twisted


I would bet with you that its already on tumblr, but that would require me going on tumblr to prove it and Ill pass.
'Goetic Magic … if properly understood would regenerate Western magic and underline its immense cultural significance, on a level equal to any spiritual tradition in the world.' -JSK

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nipha333
Philosophus
Posts: 445

Re: The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Post#53 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:49 pm

Astar_Mundi wrote:Then how would occult authors spin their extremely dubious syncretisms between totally different gods and therefore conjure out of thin air (as if by magic) their own original book topics?


If magicians didnt spin sycretisms and create new systems, the world would only have one religion ever in history, and none of us would be having this conversation.



my biggest question to anyone saying osiris, is where is the work of an actual person who used the ritual, and developed anything Osirian from the results?? Academic wordplay is cute, but if we depended on academic opinions we wouldnt be magicians, I feel like a lot of people love to miss that point. Reconstructionism and magick are not the same. Funny actually I just had a debate with some hellenic pagans on reddit this week because theyre all anti magic, and claim that magic was almost nonexistent in greece. (????) Point being most of the comments included at some point an admission that magic didnt work for them. Academic opinions by people that dont use the material are not the defining point for me. Not just in this case, but specifically here at the moment. Academics dont build religions or systems of magic, magicians and priests (indistinguishable in most cases) do. There are a bunch of examples, Crowley being the biggest obviously, of people who used this ritual extensively and developed Typhonic/Setian philosophies and practices. I might not be known or my own ideas known like someone like crowley, but as Ive said many many times here on SA I have used this ritual extensively for well over a decade and found the same thing to be true.
to refer back to something i quoted previously from Don Webb:
"...The attribution of this text to Jeu, a gnostic teacher who taught methods of divine ascent through the use of sigils, is telling. Jeu taught his deciples how to enter the Secret Place (Setheus) and obtain there the knowledge to create aeons. [can anyone say crowley for me] This spell in Greek and the Books of Jeu in Coptic were both written 350-440 CE. Both contain the idea of an "empty spirit" formed by the actions of ascending and descending from the place of internal initiation. This empty, invisible, holy, or "future" spirit is the unique place from which each magician steps out of the Cosmos to work his will upon it.
..
The "Holy Headless One" is identified in other texts as being the constellation Draco. He is Set in his form as the Bata serpent. Bata exists as a continuous serpent, or a series of Remanifestations (see "The Tale of Two Brothers) .....
..
Because the rite does NOT produce ecstacy, but rather a slow unfolding of the Law - it requires many performances. Once an individual has found his or her law....."

This is the only description that fits the results that I have seen as well as the systems provided by people that work with the ritual in that way. Until result shows me something else, I gotta' stick with it.
'Goetic Magic … if properly understood would regenerate Western magic and underline its immense cultural significance, on a level equal to any spiritual tradition in the world.' -JSK

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Astar_Mundi
Magister Templi
Posts: 5122

Re: The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Post#54 » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:55 pm

nipha333 wrote:
Astar_Mundi wrote:Then how would occult authors spin their extremely dubious syncretisms between totally different gods and therefore conjure out of thin air (as if by magic) their own original book topics?


If magicians didnt spin sycretisms and create new systems, the world would only have one religion ever in history, and none of us would be having this conversation.




that's a leap and a half.

most syncretisms are completely dubious and conjured by half-rate scholars, and no, the world would not have only had one religion - that's just non sequitur. Plenty of original pantheons of different nature survive from the original texts without need of equating an Egyptian God with a Norse God as some occult authors have done, which is the practice I am criticising.

I can just as easily argue the opposite.
Maybe if people hadn't syncretised the translations so much we'd still have purer texts of magic.
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est

Wholesome Adept Extraordinaire

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nipha333
Philosophus
Posts: 445

Re: The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Post#55 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:27 am

I would say that yes we would have more than one, but it would be very few. Most religions in the realm of europe and the middle east extensively borrowed from each other along the way. Gods made their way back and forth across borders and accrued ideas and attributions along the way, and in ome cases we cant even identify the origins of some of the most important along the way, Hekate being a great example. Religions are created by priests which are essentially no different from magicians in many cases. Religions even do it to themselves. Gods change alignment with attributions and with other deities, some disappear and reappear as syncretic entities.

I would also say that there is no such thing as pure magick or a pure magick text. The purest magick is the one thats perfect for you, and that is only possible via study, practice, and subjective synthesis with a mythology to seat the learnings of study and practice into. The grimoires are a perfect example. Some peoples personalities fit within the (IMO) silly abrahamic paradigm of the grimoire genre. Yet we can show that these are IMPURE impositions by priests translating older texts. Just like the kabbalah is an imposition by those same priests. Yet the system works just fine for people who fit into that paradigm. As silly as I find it I would never claim that it doesnt work, because it clearly does. Their subjective interfaces with objective entities via that system, and it works for them. To me this is one of the clearest but most missed points of thelema: You are who you are, and therefore the only thing that will fully work for you is what suits you! This applies 100% for systems of magick/sorcery and is why subjective synthesis is so important. Or in other words, your subjective universe will never be one and the same with anyone elses and therefore no matter how similar they may be, you and any other individual have a different process for interfacing with the objective universe. It is a recurrent theme of people discussing rituals they have experience with, that they rewrite them slightly. Im not referring to the wiccan that says "oh i read blah online and im just gonna totally rearrange this without even trying it" but people who have actually gained an understanding of what theyre working with. It is seemingly inevitable because every persons unique subjective universe interacts with the material differently and over time little things, even if its only the way an invocation rhymes, will stand out as somehow incorrect or needing adaptation. With this in mind I would say that there is no such thing as pure magick, nt in the sense of continuity through time or between people.
'Goetic Magic … if properly understood would regenerate Western magic and underline its immense cultural significance, on a level equal to any spiritual tradition in the world.' -JSK

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Magister C
Practicus
Posts: 225

Re: The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Post#56 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:20 am

nipha333 wrote:I would say that yes we would have more than one, but it would be very few. Most religions in the realm of europe and the middle east extensively borrowed from each other along the way. Gods made their way back and forth across borders and accrued ideas and attributions along the way, and in ome cases we cant even identify the origins of some of the most important along the way, Hekate being a great example. Religions are created by priests which are essentially no different from magicians in many cases. Religions even do it to themselves. Gods change alignment with attributions and with other deities, some disappear and reappear as syncretic entities.

I would also say that there is no such thing as pure magick or a pure magick text. The purest magick is the one thats perfect for you, and that is only possible via study, practice, and subjective synthesis with a mythology to seat the learnings of study and practice into. The grimoires are a perfect example. Some peoples personalities fit within the (IMO) silly abrahamic paradigm of the grimoire genre. Yet we can show that these are IMPURE impositions by priests translating older texts. Just like the kabbalah is an imposition by those same priests. Yet the system works just fine for people who fit into that paradigm. As silly as I find it I would never claim that it doesnt work, because it clearly does. Their subjective interfaces with objective entities via that system, and it works for them. To me this is one of the clearest but most missed points of thelema: You are who you are, and therefore the only thing that will fully work for you is what suits you! This applies 100% for systems of magick/sorcery and is why subjective synthesis is so important. Or in other words, your subjective universe will never be one and the same with anyone elses and therefore no matter how similar they may be, you and any other individual have a different process for interfacing with the objective universe. It is a recurrent theme of people discussing rituals they have experience with, that they rewrite them slightly. Im not referring to the wiccan that says "oh i read blah online and im just gonna totally rearrange this without even trying it" but people who have actually gained an understanding of what theyre working with. It is seemingly inevitable because every persons unique subjective universe interacts with the material differently and over time little things, even if its only the way an invocation rhymes, will stand out as somehow incorrect or needing adaptation. With this in mind I would say that there is no such thing as pure magick, nt in the sense of continuity through time or between people.


:goodpost

While I am obviously appreciative of the research and discoveries about the rituals Magicians use, I must confess, it didn't effect the aims of what I was setting out to achieve, long before the new information came to light.

I still had great success with Liber Samech in achieving KCHGA (or Daemon as I prefer).

I also had great success, ditching the Abrahamic/ Christian slant of the grimoires, using the ritual with a conjuration of my own design to conjure Goetic spirits.

While I am always most interested in new verifiable information on Magical and religious practices, such knowledge never impacts me if some author makes the claim "your doing it all wrong", in particular with this rite, which in this case has many varying opinions as to its purpose, but yeah, it has a lot of Setian influence no doubt in mind here.

Religion in my opinion, has little to do with a LHP Magician.

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Pablo
Magister Templi
Posts: 4560

Re: The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Post#57 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:00 am

nipha333 wrote:
Astar_Mundi wrote:Then how would occult authors spin their extremely dubious syncretisms between totally different gods and therefore conjure out of thin air (as if by magic) their own original book topics?


If magicians didnt spin sycretisms and create new systems, the world would only have one religion ever in history, and none of us would be having this conversation.



my biggest question to anyone saying osiris, is where is the work of an actual person who used the ritual, and developed anything Osirian from the results?? Academic wordplay is cute, but if we depended on academic opinions we wouldnt be magicians, I feel like a lot of people love to miss that point. Reconstructionism and magick are not the same. Funny actually I just had a debate with some hellenic pagans on reddit this week because theyre all anti magic, and claim that magic was almost nonexistent in greece. (????) Point being most of the comments included at some point an admission that magic didnt work for them. Academic opinions by people that dont use the material are not the defining point for me. Not just in this case, but specifically here at the moment. Academics dont build religions or systems of magic, magicians and priests (indistinguishable in most cases) do. There are a bunch of examples, Crowley being the biggest obviously, of people who used this ritual extensively and developed Typhonic/Setian philosophies and practices. I might not be known or my own ideas known like someone like crowley, but as Ive said many many times here on SA I have used this ritual extensively for well over a decade and found the same thing to be true.
to refer back to something i quoted previously from Don Webb:
"...The attribution of this text to Jeu, a gnostic teacher who taught methods of divine ascent through the use of sigils, is telling. Jeu taught his deciples how to enter the Secret Place (Setheus) and obtain there the knowledge to create aeons. [can anyone say crowley for me] This spell in Greek and the Books of Jeu in Coptic were both written 350-440 CE. Both contain the idea of an "empty spirit" formed by the actions of ascending and descending from the place of internal initiation. This empty, invisible, holy, or "future" spirit is the unique place from which each magician steps out of the Cosmos to work his will upon it.
..
The "Holy Headless One" is identified in other texts as being the constellation Draco. He is Set in his form as the Bata serpent. Bata exists as a continuous serpent, or a series of Remanifestations (see "The Tale of Two Brothers) .....
..
Because the rite does NOT produce ecstacy, but rather a slow unfolding of the Law - it requires many performances. Once an individual has found his or her law....."

This is the only description that fits the results that I have seen as well as the systems provided by people that work with the ritual in that way. Until result shows me something else, I gotta' stick with it.

:goodpost


There is much to think about in the above. I have seen the slow unfolding in the ATR work that is done with the HGA. The outcome is find the "right road" and then staying on it via timely divination.
The vulgar is at everyone's command. Eirenaeus Philalethes - The marrow of Alchemy

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Nashimiron
Adeptus Minor
Posts: 511

Re: The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Post#58 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:32 am

nipha333 wrote:The "Holy Headless One" is identified in other texts as being the constellation Draco. He is Set in his form as the Bata serpent. Bata exists as a continuous serpent, or a series of Remanifestations (see "The Tale of Two Brothers) .....
..


This is interesting stuff, is he a headless serpent? Anyway, there's two things here - one, the Headless One as Draco, and two Draco as Set.

What is the source of Draco being called the Holy Headless One?

nipha333 wrote:Because the rite does NOT produce ecstacy, but rather a slow unfolding of the Law - it requires many performances. Once an individual has found his or her law....."


I have experienced ecstacy when performing it, but maybe I'm peculiar? :shock:

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Simha
Practicus
Posts: 212

Re: The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Post#59 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:44 pm

Nashimiron wrote:I have experienced ecstacy when performing it, but maybe I'm peculiar? :shock:


I did too and I didn't read any sources that suggested that I should have that kind of experience.

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nipha333
Philosophus
Posts: 445

Re: The Bornless Ritual & The Holy Guardian Angel

Post#60 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:59 am

Magister C wrote:
Religion in my opinion, has little to do with a LHP Magician.



Unless we are creating it.
'Goetic Magic … if properly understood would regenerate Western magic and underline its immense cultural significance, on a level equal to any spiritual tradition in the world.' -JSK

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