The infamous PGM

Syncretic Egyptian / Graeco-Roman magic from the collection of texts known as the Papyri Graecae Magicae.
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Nashimiron
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Re: The infamous PGM

Post#31 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 10:31 am

Astar_Mundi wrote:After this discussion I'm going to reread the PGM and make sure I'm not talking out of my ass.


I would do the same but on my home planet we all talk out of our ass. ;)

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Astar_Mundi
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Re: The infamous PGM

Post#32 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:04 pm

What difference does it make, if Aliens/Gods they came from the Heavens or from Outer Space. They're the same thing in the end, beings with better knowledge and technology than most of us have here on Earth.

Why is there this false binary of Scientific Reality or Magical Reality when they are unified.
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Astar_Mundi
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Re: The infamous PGM

Post#33 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 2:55 pm

Either way Thoth or Hermes taught everyone most of everything we know.

Or whomever Hermes was. Maybe Thoth wasn't Hermes. Who knows. It was a long time ago.
Last edited by Astar_Mundi on Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Astar_Mundi
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Re: The infamous PGM

Post#34 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:00 pm

A burgeoning fascination with Egyptian Alien conspiracies are a fantastic way to check whether you have spent too much time reading and doing magic and have begun to lose track with common society, maybe on a permanent basis.

Is this a bad thing? Yes or No.
Last edited by Astar_Mundi on Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Astar_Mundi
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Re: The infamous PGM

Post#35 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:04 pm

Q: What is the difference between a numerology obsessed conspiracy lunatic who applies Gematria and Numerology to everything in life, and a Magician?


A: The Magician's Gematria is correct enough of the time to keep him sort of sane.
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Leonardo_Drakon
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Re: The infamous PGM

Post#36 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 3:54 pm

This topic is straying….

Astar_Mundi wrote:[
You can trace every single ritual in the PGM back to Zoroaster and then further back to Vedic Agnihotra Priesthood.


Show the evidence if such a broad statement is going to be made. I don’t doubt that you will find some instances of ritual similarities (where or when they originated is an entirely different topic), but to say “every single ritual” is absolutely incorrect.

To quote Nashimiron:

Nashimiron wrote: Nobody would seriously claim they have one over-riding influence. Unless you are going with a very vague notion that all Mediterranean and Egyptian religion is re-hashed Zoroastrianism. But such vague generalisations are the bane of the occult world.


There are specific rituals than can be traced to Babylonian/Chaldean priests…for example PGM IV. 154-285. There are others that clearly have origins in Egyptian practices such as defying animal fetishes via drowning in the Nile (i.e. PGM I. 1-42) or the singing of the seven vowels (i.e. PGM V. 1-54). Then there are a plethora of spells, the majority in fact, that deal with local folk customs, local remedies with local plants and local spirits of place. Practices born on the very earth upon which they were practiced, not disseminated from some “original” source. Yes there are Persian influences, undoubtedly; but to quote Betz’ in his introduction to the his compiled edition of the PGM :

“One must realize first that the material assembled under the name Greek magical papyri represents a collection of texts of diverse origin and nature. This collection includes individual spells and remedies, as well as collections made by ancient magicians, from the early Hellenistic period to late antiquity. Since the material comes from Graeco-Roman Egypt, it reflects an amazingly broad religious and cultural pluralism. Not surprising is the strong influence of Egyptian religion throughout the Greek magical papyri, although here the texts nevertheless show a great variety. Expressed in Greek, Demotic or Coptic, some text represent simply Egyptian religion. In others, the Egyptian element has been transformed by Hellenistic religious concepts. Most of the texts are mixtures of several religions - Egyptian, Greek, Jewish, to name the most important.”

Furthermore, there is an element of working with the spirits and deities in ways that are completely foreign to scholars of classical religions- it is not about worship but about establishing (and often, forcing) spirit/deity relationships. Again, to quote Betz:

"In this older material, the Greek gods are alive and well. But Zeus, Hermes, Apollo, Artemis, Aphrodite, and others are portrayed not Hellenic and aristocratic, as in literature, but as capricious, demonic, and even dangerous as in Greek folklore."

Note that such practices and conceptualization of spirits and deities is very different in ideology to the dualism of Zoroastrianism. The spirits and gods are not fundamentally "good" or "evil", they are simply their own forces without any superimposed morality.

And as A.A. Barb points out, this is the way the local populace, not the state-religions and temples saw and worked with the spirits:

"Much that we are accustomed to see classified as late ‘syncretism’ is rather the ancient and original, deep-seated popular religion, coming to the surface when the whitewash of ‘classical’ writers and artists began to peal off…"

The local folkloric element is vital to the PGM as it is with the later so-called "Solomonic" or "Cyprianic" Grimoires.

Astar_Mundi wrote:the fact that each appears as a syncretised hodge-podge of greek, egyptian and hebrew magic does not refute the fact that all these systems of magic were based upon a singular source of ancient wisdom, who was more than likely Thoth himself, who came to teach the Fire Priests of Magic..


This is your own interpretation. If you believe Zoroastrianism and it’s Fire-Priests to be the root of all magic, that is your prerogative…but it is by no means a universal truth.

Now, I also believe in a Primordial Tradition, don’t get me wrong…one that extends deep into our prehistoric past. But to approach everything as a “watered” down version of that original tradition kind of misses the point.

Working with spirits and magic was - and in many parts of the world, continues to be - a living tradition. As people change, move and come into contact with the new spirits of place and the ever-expanding ancestral dead then the tradition adapts and is built upon in order to continue its relevance to the people of the age. Why maintain a magical tradition if it can’t be made practical?

Those born into or initiated into such living traditions see the magical tradition as something dynamic and constantly in flux in order to be practical, not some long lost static tradition that we are left compiling the broken pieces. Some ancient wisdom that is all but lost, no! It is instead a very tangible living current of wisdom held in present day as always by the spirits and the dead.

This is where the PGM is absolutely vital. We see in it all sorts of practices and techniques that in many regards are universal (i.e. blindfolded initiations, spoken words of power, honoring the directions, magical symbols and spirit signatures, scrying, spirit journeys, dream incubation, fetish-making, offerings to spirits and a plethora of others). But what we see in the PGM are specific instances of how practicing magicians used these techniques within the spiritual landscape of their time. The magical tradition is alive and well in the PGM, and the spells are preserved for us to go ahead and practice them for practical purposes as they were intended.

Astar_Mundi wrote:What difference does it make, if Aliens/Gods they came from the Heavens or from Outer Space. They're the same thing in the end, beings with better knowledge and technology than most of us have here on Earth.

Why is there this false binary of Scientific Reality or Magical Reality when they are unified.


Somewhat off-topic, but have you read Starships? I think you would enjoy it.
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Astar_Mundi
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Re: The infamous PGM

Post#37 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:13 am

I don't believe in conspiracy nonsense.

And I do not have a firm personal belief regarding the actual origins of the ancient Gods.
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Nashimiron
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Re: The infamous PGM

Post#38 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 2:19 pm

The infamous PGM

Astar_Mundi wrote:I don't believe in conspiracy nonsense.


https://youtu.be/kvs4bOMv5Xw

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Astar_Mundi
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Re: The infamous PGM

Post#39 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:15 am

Leonardo_Drakon wrote:
Astar_Mundi wrote:the fact that each appears as a syncretised hodge-podge of greek, egyptian and hebrew magic does not refute the fact that all these systems of magic were based upon a singular source of ancient wisdom, who was more than likely Thoth himself, who came to teach the Fire Priests of Magic..


This is your own interpretation. If you believe Zoroastrianism and it’s Fire-Priests to be the root of all magic, that is your prerogative…but it is by no means a universal truth.



I never said Zoroastrianism was the root of all magic, in fact contrarily I said Zoroaster pilfered most of his religion from elsewhere. You may want to check your historical timelines, as Hellenistic religions come far after the ancient Vedic Agnihotras, not to mention Egyptian and Chaldaean magic is pre-Hellenistic. Sumerian and Babylonian magic are also coming before so why you think that the watered down 7-God systems of the Hellenistic and Roman Eras wouldn't be originating from them? (entirely based on the Chaldaen system, which is where Eastern Astrology took many of its ideas, and the Iranian Zoroaster helped himself to a large slice of Magic Cake)

If they weren't pre-Hellenistic then the loss of the Alexandrian Library wouldn't have been such a tragic debacle.
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nipha333
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Re: The infamous PGM

Post#40 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 10:45 am

Astar_Mundi wrote:A burgeoning fascination with Egyptian Alien conspiracies are a fantastic way to check whether you have spent too much time reading and doing magic and have begun to lose track with common society, maybe on a permanent basis.

Is this a bad thing? Yes or No.


I would argue that people that think this way arent doing too much magic, or losing track with common society, the people who tend to think this way are the exact opposite, people that spend too much time with societies religion, television and the internet.

Anyway, I dont think the papyri are trendy, I think it is more the fact that people are getting sick of silly interpretations of the same old crap, and there is more value put on source material.
'Goetic Magic … if properly understood would regenerate Western magic and underline its immense cultural significance, on a level equal to any spiritual tradition in the world.' -JSK

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