The infamous PGM

Syncretic Egyptian / Graeco-Roman magic from the collection of texts known as the Papyri Graecae Magicae.
User avatar

Astar_Mundi
Magister Templi
Posts: 5122

Re: The infamous PGM

Post#11 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:17 am

AnthonyArcanum wrote:Hi. I am working with This book myself, requests asking for line and number are correct in that This is a massive work all over the place, The markers were added so that we can find what we need and want with ease, I always say that This is a gift handed down to us that needs a great deal of study



Such a sacred approach to everything. we live on Earth. most of this shit is stolen, thieved or larcenied from someone smarter.
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est

Wholesome Adept Extraordinaire

User avatar

Moonlit Hermit
Adeptus Exemptus
Posts: 2169
Contact:

The infamous PGM

Post#12 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:24 pm

Astar_Mundi wrote:Such a sacred approach to everything. we live on Earth. most of this shit is stolen, thieved or larcenied from someone smarter.


This I can certainly agree with.

Astar_Mundi wrote:PGM is so trendy these days. You guys do realise its just rehashed Zoroastrianism and Chaldaean magic brought across the Aegean...nope.


But, how is this helpful in any way other than you want to show off being smart? The ancient origins of the Papyri don't minimize their importance. It's like saying 'Australia, pfft. You realize that Australia is just a chunk of Pangaea that drifted away from the rest.'
The PGM is a key text from which an immense body of work has been developed. Of course it has antecedents and roots of its own. One of the most valuable things about it is that much of it has survived to this day, in contrast to writings about Zoroastrianism or the beliefs of the Chaldeans of which there is significantly less.
But please, perhaps I am again too ignorant to understand what you are saying. Enlighten us.
Meegius, Betzahuach, Vacdez, Nufeneguidez
http://moonlithermit.blogspot.com/

User avatar

Astar_Mundi
Magister Templi
Posts: 5122

Re: The infamous PGM

Post#13 » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:26 pm

Moonlit Hermit wrote:
Astar_Mundi wrote:Such a sacred approach to everything. we live on Earth. most of this shit is stolen, thieved or larcenied from someone smarter.


This I can certainly agree with.

Astar_Mundi wrote:PGM is so trendy these days. You guys do realise its just rehashed Zoroastrianism and Chaldaean magic brought across the Aegean...nope.


But, how is this helpful in any way other than you want to show off being smart? The ancient origins of the Papyri don't minimize their importance. It's like saying 'Australia, pfft. You realize that Australia is just a chunk of Pangaea that drifted away from the rest.'
The PGM is a key text from which an immense body of work has been developed. Of course it has antecedents and roots of its own. One of the most valuable things about it is that much of it has survived to this day, in contrast to writings about Zoroastrianism or the beliefs of the Chaldeans of which there is significantly less.
But please, perhaps I am again too ignorant to understand what you are saying. Enlighten us.



There's quite alot surviving on Zoroastrianism, and it does affect the historical and magical significance of the PGM. For example, Zoroaster himself translated Asura as "good angel" and Deva as "bad demon" from the clearly Vedic sources from which he er, 'borrowed' much of his Fire Ritual based spiritual religion, which then ended up getting retranslated poorly thereafter.
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est

Wholesome Adept Extraordinaire

User avatar

Moonlit Hermit
Adeptus Exemptus
Posts: 2169
Contact:

Re: The infamous PGM

Post#14 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 3:16 am

The Vedas are all over the Picatrix and there are some echoes in the Grimorium Verum and other grimoires. The whole concept of the Decans in astrology is directly from Hindu influence. But in no way do those facts diminish any of those works.
I don't understand how knowing that the Greeks had influence from Mesopotamia diminishes the importance of the Magical Papyri.
Can one reap benefits from the PGM without knowing its provenance? Yes, absolutely.
Does it help one to know about Zoroastrianism when interpreting the PGM? Yes, certainly.
Each work needs to be examined in its own right, which includes an acknowledgement of its roots and the context in which it was written, but the interpretation of each individual magician has validity as well.
I would put a lot more stock in the person reading the PGM and doing the operations as they thought the operations might be done than some professor telling me about a paper he has written about how the Chaldeans might have done it before the Greeks even thought about it. (though I would still read the paper.)

And for the record I disagree that the PGM is trendy. That seems to denote that its influence will diminish once the next big thing comes around. I think it would be more accurate to say that the PGM is a foundational text that we have yet to explore to its potential. I think it is here to stay.
Meegius, Betzahuach, Vacdez, Nufeneguidez
http://moonlithermit.blogspot.com/

User avatar

Astar_Mundi
Magister Templi
Posts: 5122

Re: The infamous PGM

Post#15 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:33 am

Moonlit Hermit wrote:Can one reap benefits from the PGM without knowing its provenance? Yes, absolutely.



Sounds alot like modern religious person's view of The Bible.

Who cares who wrote it or how dubious its historical accuracy is, let's just reap its benefits.

As a further example, from an Engineering perspective, it is similar to finding a manual that may or may not have been tampered with and altered, or translated poorly. Now if you're building computers, bridges, cars or any kind of machinery and you have no verification on the manual you are using, you're in big trouble.

But of course magic is much safer and foolproof than building bridges...
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est

Wholesome Adept Extraordinaire

User avatar

Leonardo_Drakon
Practicus
Posts: 180
Contact:

Re: The infamous PGM

Post#16 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:39 pm

The PGM is a collection of spells and techniques from all over the Hellenic world that was compiled and kept in one personal library in Thebes (Egypt)...it's not a rehash of anything as it was simply a compilation of magical material with no overarching religious or philosophical paradigm.

We need to think of it as a magical cookbook with a collection of various diverse recipes from late antiquity, not a monolithic religious tome. There is no singular worldview or system being expressed other than the ability of the ritualist to interact with the spirit world.

To single out Zoroastrianism as the "influence" is a silly thing. All the traditions of the Near East, North Africa and Mediterranean are undoubtedly "influences" since it is the folk magical practices of these regions that have been recorded in the papyri. The emphasis is on "folk" as very little of any of the centralized state or canonical religions is to be found within the papyri. The focus of the PGM is practical magic not theological doctrine.
----------γνῶθι σεαυτόν----------

User avatar

Moonlit Hermit
Adeptus Exemptus
Posts: 2169
Contact:

Re: The infamous PGM

Post#17 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:41 pm

Astar_Mundi wrote:
Moonlit Hermit wrote:Can one reap benefits from the PGM without knowing its provenance? Yes, absolutely.

Sounds alot like modern religious person's view of The Bible.

Who cares who wrote it or how dubious its historical accuracy is, let's just reap its benefits.


This is not without merit. Traditionalist versus non-traditionalist. It adds to the depth. For a magical practice it doesn't necessarily matter who wrote a work or what its history might be. The Simon Necronomicon is a great example. It is a cobbled together bunch of Sumerian and Mesopotamian elements with a lot of fictional imagination from Lovecraft and "Simon". But people have gotten results from it and now it has a sort of tradition of its own.

Astar_Mundi wrote:As a further example, from an Engineering perspective, it is similar to finding a manual that may or may not have been tampered with and altered, or translated poorly. Now if you're building computers, bridges, cars or any kind of machinery and you have no verification on the manual you are using, you're in big trouble.

But of course magic is much safer and foolproof than building bridges...


This is a pretty apt analogy for the PGM and its Barbarous Words, the Vocce Magicae, which is an aspect of the technology of the PGM that is incomplete at best. But, to continue with your analogy, that doesn't prevent us from building bridges it prevents us from building them exactly like the ancient Greeks.

Personally I'm not so interested in being a recreationist trying to reenact ancient Greek culture.
Meegius, Betzahuach, Vacdez, Nufeneguidez
http://moonlithermit.blogspot.com/

User avatar

Moonlit Hermit
Adeptus Exemptus
Posts: 2169
Contact:

Re: The infamous PGM

Post#18 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:50 pm

Leonardo_Drakon wrote:The PGM is... not theological doctrine.


Excellent, Leonardo_Drakon. Thank you for putting this in context.
Meegius, Betzahuach, Vacdez, Nufeneguidez
http://moonlithermit.blogspot.com/

User avatar

Astar_Mundi
Magister Templi
Posts: 5122

Re: The infamous PGM

Post#19 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:08 am

Leonardo_Drakon wrote:The PGM is a collection of spells and techniques from all over the Hellenic world that was compiled and kept in one personal library in Thebes (Egypt)...it's not a rehash of anything as it was simply a compilation of magical material with no overarching religious or philosophical paradigm.

We need to think of it as a magical cookbook with a collection of various diverse recipes from late antiquity, not a monolithic religious tome. There is no singular worldview or system being expressed other than the ability of the ritualist to interact with the spirit world.

To single out Zoroastrianism as the "influence" is a silly thing. All the traditions of the Near East, North Africa and Mediterranean are undoubtedly "influences" since it is the folk magical practices of these regions that have been recorded in the papyri. The emphasis is on "folk" as very little of any of the centralized state or canonical religions is to be found within the papyri. The focus of the PGM is practical magic not theological doctrine.


So you agree that it is no more than surviving fragments and remnants of old magic from the Mediterranean region. That was exactly what I was saying, and of course, you have failed to put into historical context the origins of the dominant mystical movements from that region. Which was Zoroastrian.

It is a direct, yet watered down and altered, descendant of Zoroastrianism. To understand this would require you to have actually studied Zoroastrianism, which I can infer from your response as too high a bar to set. The common folk took knowledge from the Priest class, who were using knowledge directly from Zoroastrian and Chaldaen origins.

If you actually knew anything whatsoever about ancient Chaldean Priesthood you would find that practical magic and theological doctrine are one and the same for them. Magic was practical engineering at a higher level than banging rocks about.

To say you have either a theological manual or a practical manual is petty religious thinking at the most base level.
Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est

Wholesome Adept Extraordinaire

User avatar

Leonardo_Drakon
Practicus
Posts: 180
Contact:

The infamous PGM

Post#20 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:43 pm

Astar_Mundi wrote:
Leonardo_Drakon wrote:The PGM is a collection of spells and techniques from all over the Hellenic world that was compiled and kept in one personal library in Thebes (Egypt)...it's not a rehash of anything as it was simply a compilation of magical material with no overarching religious or philosophical paradigm.

We need to think of it as a magical cookbook with a collection of various diverse recipes from late antiquity, not a monolithic religious tome. There is no singular worldview or system being expressed other than the ability of the ritualist to interact with the spirit world.

To single out Zoroastrianism as the "influence" is a silly thing. All the traditions of the Near East, North Africa and Mediterranean are undoubtedly "influences" since it is the folk magical practices of these regions that have been recorded in the papyri. The emphasis is on "folk" as very little of any of the centralized state or canonical religions is to be found within the papyri. The focus of the PGM is practical magic not theological doctrine.


So you agree that it is no more than surviving fragments and remnants of old magic from the Mediterranean region. That was exactly what I was saying, and of course, you have failed to put into historical context the origins of the dominant mystical movements from that region. Which was Zoroastrian.

It is a direct, yet watered down and altered, descendant of Zoroastrianism. To understand this would require you to have actually studied Zoroastrianism, which I can infer from your response as too high a bar to set. The common folk took knowledge from the Priest class, who were using knowledge directly from Zoroastrian and Chaldaen origins.

If you actually knew anything whatsoever about ancient Chaldean Priesthood you would find that practical magic and theological doctrine are one and the same for them. Magic was practical engineering at a higher level than banging rocks about.

To say you have either a theological manual or a practical manual is petty religious thinking at the most base level.


Astar,

You are making incorrect assumptions and as usual your tone is accusative and offensive. I'm not going to draw out in a long argument with you, but for posterity of those coming to this topic I will say that the magical and religious panorama of late antiquity is far more complex and diverse than what you are stating.

The PGM preserves many traditions and practices with little to no ties to Zoroastrianism. For one the duality at the heart of the Zoroastrian cosmology is entirely absent in most of the PGM material and there is no underlying mystical current - that is your own interpretation which most scholar will disagree with.

A simple read through Betz' introduction in his version together with a more in depth study of Skinner's and Patchoumi's dissertations are worthwhile for anyone wanting to understand the context of the material. The core of the practices are folkloric "pagan" Greek and Egyptian. To get a better idea of the magical practices that were common in archaic and Classical periods in Greece and elsewhere around the Mediterranean prior to the PGM, I highly suggest Daniel Ogden's works.
----------γνῶθι σεαυτόν----------

Return to “Greek Magical Papyri (PGM)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest