Pendulum is confusing me

[bloodvenus]

OK..I see your point. MM is 'telling' me about the effects of the magic etc...but of course all matters of conscience or even whether or not I feel like doing any working is totally up to me. Somehow, I assumed MM would take my ethical 'sensibilities' into consideration before giving me advise but looking back on how I framed the qs, I can see how the answers made sense. Will be interesting to refine this pendulum communication, I think the 'yes' 'no' format has quite a few limitations and looking forward to moving onto the alphabetized format.
Thanks a lot for all your answers

[Nagual-Hoor-Lam]

[rhetoric]Morals bore-alls.

You say, doing such a ritual

violates the rights of others.

That sounds absurd to me! How could you violate someone's rights by way of magick? Sure, you can push events toward various outcomes with magick. But I find it hard to imagine how this is in any way a violation of someone's supposed right.

It strikes me as absurd as saying "you're messing with a persons' free will by casting an XYZ spell on them!"[/rhetoric]

Sounds to me like you have a hang-up. Your MM and the part of you that speaks through the pendulum and tarot both agree it seems you may benefit by going against your inclination, this time.

Both your methods of divination give you congruent results, yah?

Perhaps it's the notions in your mind that are the problem, as opposed to the suggested course of action that you presently find unpleasant.

Also, some people on this board have reported some issues while working with Elubatel. Perhaps you are being forewarned?

Next time you have some cash to spare, go out and order a dish you know you dislike. Order also something you know you like also. You may surprise yourself, as you eat both; at times alternating bites of either dish. Notice your thoughts and reactions to both. Then try "staging" the inverse. Think ew before you enjoy the bite of food. Or, before biting food you like, imagine it is a lump of shit. Before biting that which you dislike, imagine it is the food you do like. Or, recall the thoughts and feelings you had before biting the food you like. Muck around with this sort of thing now and again.

If you are not a fan of hard alcohol, may I suggest you pick up some. Get a strong tasting drink, Golden or Dark Rum is probably a "good choice" if you are not a drinker. Pour up a shot, or a double. Take it slowly, and hold it in your mouth for a little bit. Really taste the flavors. Don't conceptualize the experience. Just drink and taste. Notice any taste changes from the initial slurp to the last trickle as you are swallowing. Notice the aftertaste too.

If you get really into the experience of tasting the taste your usual, habitual reaction may not manifest (be it, grimacing in disgust, a sigh of pleasure, clearing your warmed throat, whatever.)

Try this experiment several times. Once you get the hang of it, try inventing your own experiments.

As far as your magickal dilemma goes: The word of Sin is Restriction. Drink and taste.

[Slater]

That sounds absurd to me! How could you violate someone's rights by way of magick? Sure, you can push events toward various outcomes with magick. But I find it hard to imagine how this is in any way a violation of someone's supposed right.

Very easily if you know what you're doing. In fact your statement is really puzzling. I can think of a handful of ways to mess with people via magic just off the top of my head..all of which I have done at some point.

There are rituals in the back of the NAP that send forth spirits to screw with people. Have you not read the book? Have you not performed effective curse work etc? Binding spells...the list is endless

That said...the idea of "and harm none" in magic is really a nice thought but pretty much neuters whatever you do. Everything we do in life has the potential to cause another harm...from getting in our cars to using a chainsaw to cut down a tree. Unless you are deliberately working magic to screw someone over, I wouldn't stress too much.

[Slater]

Nagual-Hoor-Lam...dark rum before you posted that thing about food like a piece of shit? lol
You have a way with words you know that?

[Nagual-Hoor-Lam]

In fact your statement is really puzzling.

Thanks for the compliments. Confusion is my game and wordsmithing is one of the ways I play it.

Notice the [rhetoric]tags.[/rhetoric]

You can definitely use magick to fuck with people!

But, it seems to me many people have reservations about doing so; initially at least.

Also,
Hail Eris.

PS
I've found Morals and Ethics are something I can appreciate. But, I have also found most people derive their so-called morals and ethics from past conditioning. These "conditioned scruples" are not something arrived at out of logic or consensus. No... Seems to me these scruples are the more often than not, the inculcations of religious and cultural institutions. I feel it is important to challenge past conditioning to discover how real and relevant it is (or isn't) to ourselves and our self-image.

One easy way to do so is to violate your personal taboos.

Mind you, if you go about it in the wrong way, you might end up with some nasty karma*. But who can say with certainty which way is wrong for you?

*By karma here I am pointing towards notions about causality. How does an action (anybody's) affect your thoughts, feelings and later actions; or those of any others? This is the "karma" I am familiar with. But I don't think it can be measured. I think it is actually unreal, in a sense.

[bloodvenus]

@Nagual. Hey,psychedelic pussy cat.
Yeah..have done a lot of the deprogramming work and have kept what I find useful and true..like don't take a dump in your dinner..unless ur into that..I find that's not quite my cuppa tea. I use the word 'morals' to summarize that sort of thing..imagining that in a forum like this it wont be assumed that I'm talking about Moses and his tablets but something more akin to energy..recycling..you know..what you dump out is what u get to eat kinda thing...so I try to be careful with the energy I exude..through thought,words, actions and yes..magick!! These yukky obsessive, revenge feelings are a real downer..and I'm worried that doing a punishing/enslavement type ritual would just increase that dodgy energy in me and then my life will become a telenovella of dodginess..if u know what mean. Totally not my scene.
But my reading is showing the World, 10 of Wands, 9 of cups. 10 of wands may be a lot more effort and energy than I'm willing to give this thing. But that 9 of Cups sure looks good...cant be too dodgy. But I'm just not sure it's worth it...would rather put that energy into my development. Have absorbed all points of view..will give myself a break and come back to it in a couple of months if it's still a relevant issue in my life..and do whatever needs to be done.
I think it's really cool that my MM challenged my POV and in a strange way, that now confirms to me as MrBlack says that this is a growth process because it doesn't just reflect back to me my own 'prejudices' but shows me that there is a whole other ballgame out there. This magic stuff is a very fine adventure.
Thanks y'all for taking the time to answer.

[Nagual-Hoor-Lam]

I generally assume people mean all kinds of silliness when they bring up ethics and morals. Unless it is a user I am familiar with whose post I'm reading. Then I make all kinds of assumptions.

Can I ask what kinda methods you used to deprogram? (Maybe PM, to not derail.)

[raum215]

The best way to understand the bitch-goddess that is the 10 of wands in in relation to the 9 of wands.

9 of wands - I can throw fireballs in my dream!

10 of Wands - aww, hand grenades are illegal!

---

As for Elubatel, he is a very powerful being and can overpower some connections - so you may be told to not connect to him directly because it might interfere with other things your MM is trying to strengthen.

[Slater]

lol

[MagiAwen]

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