vengeance and selfishness...

[dark86]

ok, i read the book a couple of times and have played with NAP and some of the other (service to others) for a while and got some amazing results

but...

much of the book is all ego, selfish, and alot of vengeance. i spent much time in a mystery school and i learnt that vengeance energy comes back (and some) especially when we are messing with others free will.

i read people on here going hell for leather with the book without even knowing the hebrew for the word and foaming at the mouth for "personal success" - this is up to each person.......but what i would like explained to me is how one feels they will "get away with it" ? if anyone has done any serious ascension / non duality work it is surely known that ALL acts of will and action are recorded. karma is at play.....and maybe we are in a situation to learn from and to evolve the soul, and using a spell to zap out of the situation means it will just come back to us.

i dont wanna come across all new agey, but i just want someone who uses this stuff for vengence and physical desire to explain to me their mindset on how they feel this is ok?

i am suprised no-one has really looked for the hebrew (i know not all are) as the letters hold resonance as much as the sounds.

[girasol]

I think this doesn't relate directly to magick itself - people are all kinds, and some people are inclined to self-improvement, self-development, spiritual development and so forth; others are caught in the world and torn by anger, greed, lust, fear and so on. If they get into magick, they will tend to use it to fit with their way in the world. Those with an inclination to spiritual development will choose forms of magick that support that; those caught in suffering will use magick that fills that need.

For people to move from living in suffering to striving for spiritual/self development is something that has to come to them on its own, through some inner experience. Sometimes that change can happen from a near death experience or bottoming out in a bad way, crashing and burning, or traumatic experience. Other than that I don't know what makes some people into seekers and others happy to just focus on wordly struggles. Or why some have a change of heart late in life, others early in life.

[BrotherButterball]

I would suggest reading and reviewing Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Some are focused in upon the basics of food, clothing, shelter and sex.

Others are actively involved with actualizing themselves to their full potential.

Personally speaking, I learned from an Astrophysicist that one should do all their own thinking.

This is empowering. Another thing to consider is paradigm shifting.

I wont let myself be trapped into the christian mindset of sin

nor the eastern concept of karma. I worked the NAP rituals the destructive rituals

in the back of the book extensively back in the day,

when the book was first released. Nothing bad happened to me.

Those that sought to harm me were harmed.

In my paradigm at that time, it was all good magic.

Tim

[dark86]

I would suggest reading and reviewing Abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Some are focused in upon the basics of food, clothing, shelter and sex.

Others are actively involved with actualizing themselves to their full potential.

Personally speaking, I learned from an Astrophysicist that one should do all their own thinking.

This is empowering. Another thing to consider is paradigm shifting.

I wont let myself be trapped into the christian mindset of sin

nor the eastern concept of karma. I worked the NAP rituals the destructive rituals

in the back of the book extensively back in the day,

when the book was first released. Nothing bad happened to me.

Those that sought to harm me were harmed.

In my paradigm at that time, it was all good magic.

Tim

thanks for the reply....i will check out that book when i can too. i respect all your points, and cannot rule out in the future any of the "attacking" rituals if i or my family were threatened.

karma i do not see as eastern really (though essentially it is)...i certainly do not see it as a philosophy i have grabbed. in two 100 day merkabas and also in a high dose of ayahuasca i saw clearly that every act and thought is recorded - and that vengeance energy, and the use of magic to bend things for ego and materialistic reasons is falling deep into the illusion - and that these "grabs" will get ironed out and exchanged somehow. but that is my "subjective" experience, and not to be anyone elses truth - they where experiences i had.

many of the rituals in NAP are sold as being to get rich or get a physically attractive partner to f00k - for me, this is a low vibration and one many years ago i transmuted. of course n the book this is just the fluff around the incantations.

can i ask whether you believe in rebirth / reincarnation - i am sure you do. do you see using magic for materialistic and physical reasons as having no affect on rebirth or the afterlife? if not, then do you see rebirth as being random -a bit like a new pinball.

respect,

D

[BrotherButterball]

Just a brief comment for now.

I do not see having sex as a low vibration.

Having sex has a high vibration.

The sex act can be the highest expression of ones love for another.

It can also be a form of release as in orgasm and empowering magical workings.

We come back to the concept of intent. What is your intent?

Do you want to find your true will and follow that or what do you seek?

Some need more money. Some want sex with a hot looking woman.

Magic is right there where the rubber meets the road.

There are different forms of magic for everybody.

Regarding rebirth and reincarnation.

Both are possible and there may or may not be evidence.

We wont know until after we have left this mortal coil.

Tim

[Satori Tindalos]

this is up to each person.......but what i would like explained to me is how one feels they will "get away with it" ? if anyone has done any serious ascension / non duality work it is surely known that ALL acts of will and action are recorded. karma is at play.....and maybe we are in a situation to learn from and to evolve the soul, and using a spell to zap out of the situation means it will just come back to us.

I've always found it amazing when magicians know that magick works, but don't accept a premise of why it works that involves a sense of universal justice and fairness.

Paradigms differ. But I've never understood either how it was possible to use something which demonstrates that there's an authority greater than the will of the Ego that's capable of altering our lives, and then to have some people using that greater thing as though it were put there with the Purpose of being a dispenser of Ego gratifications. The mentality attempts to take the greater, and fantasize that it's the mere servant of the lesser. While untrue, the fantasy can be accepted if the person has already made a Choice to accept their Ego as their guide. This is because the fantasy is a mere pretext being used to justify that Choice, already made.

Motivating intent counts for a lot, of course. It's the nature of the Choice being made that seems to matter, and the same Working, when done by different people for different reasons, can demonstrate wildly different Choices. Like any other tool, magick can be used to make hale or to harm; the nature of the underlying Choice can be subtle, and magicians can even successfully convince others and occasionally even themselves that the basis of their Choices is benevolent. When it's not, that success has only served to prevent the magician from correcting the error and caused him to self-inflict more harm upon himself. I suspect part of the reason their skill at self-deception brings them so much harm is due, in part, to a kharmic result of them having Chosen to deceive others for so long.

Correctly determining intent requires some definite self-knowledge. Not to mention a sincere desire to query your conscience and listen to the answer you get. Some people conflate vengeance and justice, for example. It's a very convenient rationalization to make, and if you're motivated enough by vengeance you'll have so much invested that you won't be willing to self-evaluate on the subject. Likewise, for some people Ego is all they know of themselves. Should these people ever encounter magick, it only exacerbates the problem further. They've discovered that their Will can affect their environment, and their pursuit of magick becomes just one form that idolization of the Ego can take - the glee they get when magick has allowed them to get their way is so fulfilling to them, because what they were really after was the Ego glorification. So it can become an enabling device, and a syndrome I call Mage Snobbery can often be encountered in the scene.

The great news is that people who seek to glorify their Ego like that usually do it because they sense a lack there. What they usually feel as a deficiency and sense of powerlessness - which they perpetually try to cover over with constant self-advertising both publicly and privately - is actually the beginning of a healthy process.

You only begin to sense a lack of something when you know on some level that that isn't the way things ought to be. It starts to happen when you get an inkling that there's supposed to be something better manifest there in its place, but there isn't yet. It's the twinges people get when they're on the verge of realizing that they're dissatisfied with their Ego - a synthetic creation they've themselves made in the first place - and that what actually satisfies them is having something more worthwhile in its place. Sort of a spiritual molting, if you will.

Left unchecked, this is the beginning of a spiritual growth process that usually leads to someone transitioning from the Ego's Sucker to a Truth Seeker. There are many fraudulent powers out there that would prefer them to be purchasing cola instead, or subsidizing the invasion of other countries, and so great care is taken to make sure that this transition process isn't left unchecked. Most of the advertising world, just for starters, is designed to cause Ego buy-in, and the mainstream media has begun to follow suit as well. Eventually of course, people won't continue accepting that which has no value in place of something with real value - which is the problem the U.S. is having right now as other countries are refusing to accept payment in worthless paper. It's the same thing on a metaphysical level.

Everybody refuses to settle for a scenario that's unworthy of them, sooner or later.

Assisting people in getting to that point sooner is just an integral part of displacing those scenarios with something more worthwhile.

[BrotherButterball]

Among magicians, experiencing egoism and being egotistical,

it really is not so amazing.

Magicians follow their own true will and for some their own will

referring to Left Hand Path magicians.

You cannot apply your single paradigm to all of magic and all magicians.

This site happens to be about evocation and magic.

Like it or not. You and I define our own magic and what we do with it.

As the late Al Manning would say to me: Puck'em all we have got the magic.

And Al was not strictly a white lighter in my experiences with him.

As for the comment that some magicians are egoistic and egotistical.

Join the club. Wake up and smell the roses.

You are going to find that among many magicians.

Magic is a path where one follows their own will.

Regarding self advertising. People love to talk about themselves.

People in general are self self centered.

This is a valid psychological and sociological observation.

Writing that America is not being accepted because of

egotism and such is foolhardy and narrow.

Name several countries and nations where the leaders

are not self serving, and you will win the Door Prize from me.

Politicians have always been thus.

Unless you are able to spiritualize politics

being egoistic and self serving is a reality

and it is not going to disappear.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Tim

[Satori Tindalos]

You cannot apply your single paradigm to all of magic and all magicians.

I don't, just as I don't go around trying to apply gravity to people.

A word to the wise, is all.

I find it curious that we use a system of rules that obviously works, and demonstrates itself as universal, yet much of society has become relegated to opinions and individual paradigms rather than certain knowledge.

It happens in politics as well. People used to know the law. Now they only appear to present arbitrary opinions, lacking in an objective, unifying basis and frequently in conflict. Everyone's free to have opinions of their own, but it does them very little good.

How convenient this is for the politicians.

Like it or not. You and I define our own magic and what we do with it.

We come to our own conclusions about it, certainly.

Interestingly, we're free to reinterpret universal principles and our True Natures, but not actually overwrite them.

Regarding self advertising. People love to talk about themselves.

Certainly. Some, that is.

People in general are self self centered.

I'd said as much. Naughty by nurture.

Writing that America is not being accepted because of

egotism and such is foolhardy and narrow.

Umm, thanks.

I wrote that its baseless paper money was being rejected.

Name several countries and nations where the leaders

are not self serving, and you will win the Door Prize from me.

Thank you, no.

Politicians have always been thus.

Yes, wherever it was tolerated.

People will only tolerate from others what they have been made accustomed to tolerating from themselves.

Unless you are able to spiritualize politics

being egoistic and self serving is a reality

I would say typical. True reality isn't so up for redefinition like that. If we only accepted what seemed prevalent as valid, this board wouldn't be here.

Spiritualizing politics requires spiritualizing people again. Doing anything with politics requires doing it first with, or to, the People.

Which is how they dis-spirited politics, of course. Dissociated it from its true nature and purpose. Detached it from its essence. And we know what the opposite of in-spiration is.

I'm respiritualizing people every day. And I'm rather aghast that so many of the modern churches are not.

It would seem to be their purpose, after all.

and it is not going to disappear.

Our True Nature doesn't go away. And it's a great unifier.

Formal decrees from baseless authorities never stopped our basic nature, only denied it. They tried a bronze tablet, but we still have our intrinsic joi de vivre.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Charming.

[dark86]

i am not sure about f***ing being a high vibration - porn and one night stands usually leak energy out of ppl afterwards, and guilt etc usually ensue etc....but merging aura with love and care - thats a super high vibration

but my query was not related to this, more to do with the mindset and "getting away with" hacking others free will, vengeance, and service to self.

i think my query was answered in this sentence...

Regarding rebirth and reincarnation. Both are possible and there may or may not be evidence.
We wont know until after we have left this mortal coil.

and in the tone of...

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

i have found much of my true will, and know where my intent leads me, and pretty sure where it will lead me.

ps the last thing i want to be is a macrocosm of the world system (leaders and politicions), and would never use their paradigm as a caveat for anything i did.

thanks.

[BrotherButterball]

i am not sure about f***ing being a high vibration - porn and one night stands usually leak energy out of ppl afterwards, and guilt etc usually ensue etc....but merging aura with love and care - thats a super high vibration

but my query was not related to this, more to do with the mindset and "getting away with" hacking others free will, vengeance, and service to self.

i think my query was answered in this sentence...

Regarding rebirth and reincarnation. Both are possible and there may or may not be evidence.
We wont know until after we have left this mortal coil.

and in the tone of...

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

i have found much of my true will, and know where my intent leads me, and pretty sure where it will lead me.

ps the last thing i want to be is a macrocosm of the world system (leaders and politicions), and would never use their paradigm as a caveat for anything i did.

thanks.

Where do we go when we die?

And how can we be sure about this?

Inquiring minds want to know.

My point being in a perfect world everybody would agree.

Because I am a man I am fallible and I make mistakes.

The Bible was written by men such as this, inspired perhaps, but fallible.

Where does Universal Justice and Love come from?

Who created it? These all are valid questions.

Please don't go away angry, mad, or offended.

Thanks.

Tim