A bit of reassurance?

The methods and techniques outlined in The Miracle of New Avatar Power by Geof Gray-Cobb

Topic author
caleb

Re: A bit of reassurance?

Post#11 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 3:54 pm

:goodpost

Yeah as I've been getting more into NAP I see about the whole hyped up thing doesn't necessarily mean that the content is in any way similar to other books of the kind. Beneath it all it's no-bullshit pragmatic magick. Also, a suggestion that I've heard some make is that all the hype is used as a tactic to create belief in the system to enable the reader to be more empowered, which also makes sense.

In regards to the new age, I remembered something interesting I read in SSOTBME by Ramsey Dukes (amazing book, must read for every magician). He compared the new age movement to Pauline christianity. Just as St. Paul took the original christian philosophy (a rather revolutionary and egalitarian piece of work) and warped it to make it more mysoginistic, totalitarian, and generally acceptable, in the same way the new age is a warping of the western tradition (an extremely revolutionary and individually empowering bit of awesomeness :D ) to make it more "fluffy" and dilettante friendly.


Aum
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Re: A bit of reassurance?

Post#12 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:40 pm

caleb wrote:Awesome post, Eugene.

@Aum The very best thing you can say about the new age movement is that it's a harmless watering down of the western tradition. To actually say that, though, would be optimistic in proportions worthy of Forrest Gump.


Actually, I would say the opposite. The Western Tradition--Golden Dawn to be more specifically--has much to owe to Theosophical work. While these people were prancing around in robes and chanting god knows what incantations, theosophy was actually spreading much knowledge about the afterlife, good ways of living, meditation, etc. Even more so now that much of it is being proved by science. When Leadbeater proposed his theories of chakras the western world was stunned and taken aback. Now, we are looking back and realizing just how accurately his clairvoyant observations were. His occult chemistry is a classic in the work in the field.

A good portion of the new age's roots are in Theosophy (as you pointed out earlier). If you take even a cursory look at Theosophy you'll see that it is batshit insane.


Israel Regardie and Dion Fortune work is litered with references to Theosophical work. Look at Dion Fortune' Sane Occultism and you will often find word for word verbatim of Theosophy.

Besides the harmless lunacies (Atlantis theorizing, etc.), there are also very dangerous ones. Ever wonder where Hitler got his ideas about Aryan supremacy, Jews being subhuman, etc.? From Blavatsky's "The Secret Doctrine."


This is poor logic. There will always be those who will pervert the divine sciences for their own selfish endeavors. This does not mean that the Original system is corrupt because some idiot in another part of the world decided to adopt a theory to suit his toxic world views. The same comparison could be made of Fundamentalist Christians who only quote the Bible to justify their own hate of gays and what not.

Putting aside all these problems with factual accuracy that seem to plague Theosophy, you also have their spiritual deception. I'm sure you've heard of Jiddhu Krishnamurti? Well, he was trained from birth to play the part of messiah for the Theosophists when he got older to help them gain more power. That didn't pan out, and the story is very inspiring, but I won't go into it here. The point is, that with its roots in shitholes like Theosophy, how could anything good come of the new age?


Well, I could make a similar statement. I could ask you if you've heard of a character named Aleister Crowley? And his degenerate, sensualistic, and drug-infested practices and ask you how anything good could come out of his "great works" ?

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R. Eugene Laughlin
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Re: A bit of reassurance?

Post#13 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:54 pm

Aum wrote:Eugene,

There is obvious interest if I took the time to respond to the discussion. Do please enlighten me with why you think the New Age is 'bad'...


I said a lot of New Age literature was bad, just to be clear. And so it is.

As others have suggested, the New Age movement (or whatever you want to call it) we've inherited today largely originated with Blavatsky and her immediate cohort. The basic starting point was/is that all spiritual systems evolved in response to the same fundamental reality. That idea in itself has a lot of surface appeal, and based on reasoning alone, we rightly conclude that it's at least partially true. As such, much of Blavatsky's literature is aimed at demonstrating an all systems are one system principle, and there's where the problems begin.

Her treatment of Vedic cosmological constructs, for example, which she frequently refers to, tend to be categorically flawed. If one is well read enough in both Western and Eastern esoteric literature and reviews her work in their light, one will recognize that in many instances, rather than treating Vedic constructs for what they are, she's instead found some rather typical Western cosmological notion that she must have assumed was close enough to be expressing the same thing, and then in essence renamed it with a Sanskrit word, carrying at most bits and pieces of the meaning from the original Sanskrit, just enough to muck-up the Western construct too, so that she manages to utterly muddle the original meaning of both constructs. Heh.

The basic idea (all systems are one) was so appealing, so it seems, and knowledge of Vedic philosophy in the West was so scant at the time, those glaring flaws went largely unnoticed (not by the more scholarly, but by many none the less). All reports suggest that she was a gifted and highly charismatic cold-reader too, which helped her develop a cult of personality among New York High Society around the turn of the 20th Century (she was a must at any party worth attending for a good while there), which no doubt aided in more or less canonizing some of those flawed ideas, which have been repeated time and again by successive generations of authors, often without citation, as if they were the gospel truth. I suspect that for many such authors, they're not even aware of where those ideas came from. They're just repeating what they were taught, etc.

The lack of citation and passing along of flawed ideas by people who don't have the background to even begin to understand the flaws is a problem in itself and has been percolating in the culture for 100 years now. And there's something of the gossip game effect going on, you know, where someone whispers a sentence into someone's ear, say, The blue car drove past the house, who then whispers the sentence into the ear of the next person, and on around the room till it comes to last person, who stands up and proudly exclaims: Purple monkey dishwasher!. Again, heh.

Take for example: dakshinachara and vamachara, which she introduced into the Western vernacular as Right Hand Path and Left Hand Path, respectively. I'll refer readers to this okay wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-Hand_Path_and_Right-Hand_Path. Read the whole thing of course, but the most relevant bit is under the "History of the Terms" heading.

In brief, in the Tantric traditions those terms come from, the goal in the same in both cases: escape from Samsara (the cycle of birth, live, and death), but that goal is approached in different ways. The so-called Right Hand Path is the acetic path, the path of denial, wherein the aspirant more or less sits and meditates and tries to do nothing, resisting the temptation to engage in those activities that will keep them bound to the Wheel of Samsara. Alternatively, the Left Hand Path is the path of immersion, wherein aspirants deeply indulge in precisely the sorts of activities that tend to keep people bound to the Wheel, in an attempt to burn their influence away, to render themselves immune to those temptations. In their original context, neither approach is good nor evil, neither more spiritual than the other, etc. They are simply opposing routes to the same same end.

Blavatsky, however, frequently equated the Left Hand Path with "evil" and the likes, a usage of the term that continues to this day.

So, one might wonder, does it really matter? So what if we don't really know what Vamachara really means, right? Well, that in itself is not important, but that's not the extent of the Blavatsky legacy. One might characterize what she was trying to do as a forced syncretism. Throughout the history and development of esoteric thought, in all areas of the world, where ver cultures begin to intermingle enough, their spiritual traditions tend to merge (consider the Egyptian influence on Plato, for example). But syncretism is an organic process that evolves naturally over time, much in the way a unique dialect of given language spontaneously evolves under certain circumstances.

Briefly, the reason an organically developed dialect works is because over time the dialect grows into a comprehensive and coherent codification of more or less everything people might want to express (as much as any language can). All languages are in essence built to express the same world, so in that way, the different languages of the world kind of fit the Theosophical notion: all systems are one. However, the way each language breaks down the world into component parts is different, so if you try to force the meanings of words from one language onto another, sometimes the break points will be different, meaning will be lost, and communication will be difficult at best, and misunderstanding will be highly likely.

Likewise, by trying to force partially incompatible cosmological constructs together, where different systems have divvied up the cosmos in different ways, many of the elements that render either construct coherent and part of a comprehensive whole are just lost, so that the final product is, well, pretty much a muddled up mess. But in this case its much worse than the linguistic example, where the result is just difficulty in communicating. That's because the developmental techniques people use these days are tried and true; they tend to work. So if someone's doing good developmental work with such a muddled up cosmological system, they're actually instilling all those inconsistencies right into their deep psyche. It's all to common today, and it's a crying shame, really.

Aum wrote:I am also curious of what you mean of this 'popularizing particular interpretation of literature.' If you are referring to Karma, is is not the only thing they popularized.


I think I've adequately addressed this in the above, but if you have additional questions, I remain willing to continue the conversation. And if you're still willing to provide your understanding of what "karma" is, I'm still interested.


Topic author
caleb

Re: A bit of reassurance?

Post#14 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:35 pm

@Eugene I couldn't have said it better myself.

@Aum

[quote="Aum"]This is poor logic. There will always be those who will pervert the divine sciences for their own selfish endeavors. This does not mean that the Original system is corrupt because some idiot in another part of the world decided to adopt a theory to suit his toxic world views. The same comparison could be made of Fundamentalist Christians who only quote the Bible to justify their own hate of gays and what not.[quote/]

The fact is that the bible is an extremely homophobic and prejudiced book. Not surprising, as it was written by bronze age ascetics for the most part, with a few illiterate manual laborers for extra flavor. But still, hardly literal truth. Those who ignore the violent commands in the bible while emphasizing the nice parts are being less true to their faith than the rednecks who accept the whole shebang. The same thing with Blavatsky. The Secret Doctrine is racist insanity, and that's all there is to it. No redemption.

[quote]Well, I could make a similar statement. I could ask you if you've heard of a character named Aleister Crowley? And his degenerate, sensualistic, and drug-infested practices and ask you how anything good could come out of his "great works"[quote/]

Well, I'm a Thelemite, so I do think a whole lot of good has come from Crowley. First off, who are you to criticize the spiritual practice of another? Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Also, what's wrong with sensuality? Or drugs? You're sounding like one of those Fundamentalist Christians. "Degenerate" is far too judgmental a word for a practicing magician to use, I think. Love him or hate him, the fact remains that Crowley is the most influential magician of the last century or more. The benefit with Crowley is that his flaws (not the "degenerate, sensualistic, and drug-infested practices." His actual flaws. Those were just his style.) are so easy to pinpoint, and so it's easy to avoid falling into the same traps. With someone like Blavatsky, however, it's a whole different story. Crowley said "don't believe me." He wanted people to be convinced solely by personal experience, not because of his charisma. Blavatsky was the exact opposite. Crowley always was true to the principle that "the map is not the territory:"

"In this book it is spoken of the Sephiroth and the Paths, of Spirits and Conjurations, of Gods, Spheres, Planes, and many other things which may or may not exist. It is immaterial whether they exist or not. By doing certain things certain results follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophical validity to any of them."

Blavatsky, on the other hand, was dogmatic that what she taught was absolute truth, when in fact it was anything but. Crowley was (and is) quite simply the greatest spiritual teacher in a long while. His work is still relevant because it's easy to separate "Crowley the man" and where his ego or ignorance obfuscates from "Crowley the initiate" and his teachings.

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Silenciumetaurum
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Re: A bit of reassurance?

Post#15 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:43 pm

caleb wrote:I think. Love him or hate him, the fact remains that Crowley is the most influential magician of the last century or more.



Degenerate? Magician - poet - philosopher - mountain climber - essayist - creator of religions - painter - novelist. And also, in his own very sincere way, someone who tried to relate the truth of his experiences so that others could benefit thereby.

http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib77.html

If this is degenerate, then let me be degenerate.
Aradia: Letters from the Dark Moon

If something is hard, do it more. Don't run away.


Topic author
caleb

Re: A bit of reassurance?

Post#16 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:04 pm

Silenciumetaurum wrote:If this is degenerate, then let me be degenerate.


Amen, brother! Or should i say, LAShTAL! lol ;)


Aum
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Re: A bit of reassurance?

Post#17 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:25 pm

Her treatment of Vedic cosmological constructs, for example, which she frequently refers to, tend to be categorically flawed. If one is well read enough in both Western and Eastern esoteric literature and reviews her work in their light, one will recognize that in many instances, rather than treating Vedic constructs for what they are, she's instead found some rather typical Western cosmological notion that she must have assumed was close enough to be expressing the same thing, and then in essence renamed it with a Sanskrit word, carrying at most bits and pieces of the meaning from the original Sanskrit, just enough to muck-up the Western construct too, so that she manages to utterly muddle the original meaning of both constructs


Her objective was to piece together the many truths from different religions and to show that they are all based on the same principles and that no one religion is right wrong. This is what theosophy is based on. So her motives were actually good in this respect. To say that she was trying to force this syncretism is ludicrous. No where in Theosophical work states that everything is to be taken as absolute Truth because Truths comes in different forms, yet they are linked by underlying Truths that go unnoticed. In fact, Theosophy advocates that the aspirant remain true his faith—whether a Christian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, because under all the dogma, there was that one underlying truth that brought them together.

The basic idea (all systems are one) was so appealing, so it seems, and knowledge of Vedic philosophy in the West was so scant at the time, those glaring flaws went largely unnoticed (not by the more scholarly, but by many none the less). All reports suggest that she was a gifted and highly charismatic cold-reader too, which helped her develop a cult of personality among New York High Society around the turn of the 20th Century (she was a must at any party worth attending for a good while there), which no doubt aided in more or less canonizing some of those flawed ideas, which have been repeated time and again by successive generations of authors, often without citation, as if they were the gospel truth. I suspect that for many such authors, they're not even aware of where those ideas came from. They're just repeating what they were taught, etc.


You make it sound like this is exclusive to Theosophy . Anyone can be greatly inspired by a work and adopt it as their own and fail to cite their sources and whatnot and speak of a subject that they know little of. She was very clear on where her ideas came from: The Great White Brotherhood. She may have not been correct in her definition of the work, yet she was trying to shed light on ideas that were mostly unknown and unthinkable to the West at time. Theosophy proposed that the East were greatly advanced in spiritual matters though they were not materially advanced as West. Her main objective was to link the gap.

The lack of citation and passing along of flawed ideas by people who don't have the background to even begin to understand the flaws is a problem in itself and has been percolating in the culture for 100 years now. And there's something of the gossip game effect going on, you know, where someone whispers a sentence into someone's ear, say, The blue car drove past the house, who then whispers the sentence into the ear of the next person, and on around the room till it comes to last person, who stands up and proudly exclaims: Purple monkey dishwasher!. Again, heh.


Again, Theosophy is not to be blame for this.

One might characterize what she was trying to do as a forced syncretism. Throughout the history and development of esoteric thought, in all areas of the world, where ver cultures begin to intermingle enough, their spiritual traditions tend to merge (consider the Egyptian influence on Plato, for example). But syncretism is an organic process that evolves naturally over time, much in the way a unique dialect of given language spontaneously evolves under certain circumstances.

Briefly, the reason an organically developed dialect works is because over time the dialect grows into a comprehensive and coherent codification of more or less everything people might want to express (as much as any language can). All languages are in essence built to express the same world, so in that way, the different languages of the world kind of fit the Theosophical notion: all systems are one. However, the way each language breaks down the world into component parts is different, so if you try to force the meanings of words from one language onto another, sometimes the break points will be different, meaning will be lost, and communication will be difficult at best, and misunderstanding will be highly likely.

Likewise, by trying to force partially incompatible cosmological constructs together, where different systems have divvied up the cosmos in different ways, many of the elements that render either construct coherent and part of a comprehensive whole are just lost, so that the final product is, well, pretty much a muddled up mess. But in this case its much worse than the linguistic example, where the result is just difficulty in communicating. That's because the developmental techniques people use these days are tried and true; they tend to work. So if someone's doing good developmental work with such a muddled up cosmological system, they're actually instilling all those inconsistencies right into their deep psyche. It's all to common today, and it's a crying shame, really.


In summary, you criticize the New Age and Theosophy for bringing together knowledge from different sources (which were unknown at the time) and because they were not 100% accurate in respect to their origins, it is a flawed work. Much of what makes up the Golden Dawn is a syncretism of Jewish, Egyptian, Greek, and Babylonian magic. This is the very same syncretism at work that you are looking down on with Theosophical work. You condemn Theosophy for bringing together systems that cannot be easily brought into direct translation, yet this applicable to the Western Hermetic Tradition. You will find no one Esoteric tradition that is completely original in its work and 100% direct replica of the original.


Topic author
caleb

Re: A bit of reassurance?

Post#18 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:38 pm

You're one hundred percent right about the Golden Dawn. John Moore was right when he said "the whole Golden Dawn system is a poetic fiction." That's not to criticize its effectiveness, Chaos Magic shows that something doesn't need to be "true" to work :D .

Aum wrote:You make it sound like this is exclusive to Theosophy . Anyone can be greatly inspired by a work and adopt it as their own and fail to cite their sources and whatnot and speak of a subject that they know little of. She was very clear on where her ideas came from: The Great White Brotherhood. She may have not been correct in her definition of the work, yet she was trying to shed light on ideas that were mostly unknown and unthinkable to the West at time. Theosophy proposed that the East were greatly advanced in spiritual matters though they were not materially advanced as West. Her main objective was to link the gap.


I would take exception to her claims about her ideas coming from the Great White Brotherhood. The purpose of the GWB is to enlighten mankind. Blavatsky's ideas are counter-initiatory. They are focused on conspiracies, overarching cosmic plots and schemes, and a healthy drop of lunacy. Clearly, Black Brotherhood. Now, I'm not accusing anyone of being "black magicians." The Black Brotherhood is simply those individuals who, intentionally or not, work against the illumination of humanity. The A.'.A.'. however, (and I use "A.'.A.'." as a catch-all for the whole Thelemic legacy, which I consider the latest and most relevant incarnation of the mysteries) is focused on the personal progress of the individual. Illuminate yourself, and then help everyone else get there.


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Re: A bit of reassurance?

Post#19 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:40 pm

I have little to add to this discussion.

With regard to that brief comment about Forrest Gump.

I would say that Forrest Gump was a damn good Table Tennis player.

The movie was magical to me. And it was a pleasure being on the movie set.

Timothy
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Topic author
caleb

Re: A bit of reassurance?

Post#20 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:52 pm

Holy shit, you were on the set?! That's fucking awesome! :o

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