Elubatel: Command or Be Grateful?

[Kappa]

Thanks to everyone who's helping me out here. I just had a moment of clarity and realized what my real issue is.

I have no problem using the wording in the book if the angels/demons/spirits are free to say NO. My personal ethical code prevents me from working with systems like the Goetia because there you are *forcing* the spirits to do sh** for you. I'm worried that when I say "...I conjure and command Thee, mighty Elubatel...", and seal it with the word of power that Elubatel has to carry out my task whether he wants to or not, just like Asmodeus has to do whatever the Operator tells him to do. I'm not OK with that!

ps: I don't care whether it is "my right" to boss them around. I just want to know: can they say "no"?

Yes, they can say no. If your request goes against some natural law, they just wouldn't do it. But most of the time, it would be you, your higher Self saying "no" not the spirit. The spirit is not going to go against your higher Self or anyone else's for that matter.

If you are uncomfortable with the wording, just change it and make note of whether you are still able to get results. It's definitely worth experimenting with.

[Clayfield]

One thing I'd like to understand is why everyone thinks command means disrespect or being mean.

This is probably because I started a thread in which I was worried about being mean to Elubatel. This forum is full of praise for Elubatel, with lots of talk of thanks and offerings. It seemed to contradict the wording in NAP, such as, "henceforward I conjure and command Thee", or, "Hear this, and obey me." I couldn't get my head around the required mindset to be thankful, grateful and making offerings, while also using this wording. This thread has clarified that. I now do the whole thing with authority and respect, and will give thanks when the results come. It's working, from what I can tell.

Clay, if you feel yourself continue to get a bit wobbly...it would help to do some ground and centering...Bardon’s IIH is extremely helpful but if you’d rather do something else I hear the LBRP and those practices are pretty good too.

Thanks. I already do the LBRP with NAP, but will look into the Bardon, so cheers for the tip.

I remember when I first read a book about magic, some thirty-odd years ago, and it said not to try this stuff until you've sorted your head/emotions out. Trouble is, I'd never have got started with magic if I'd waited. I've heard a few people say that angelic beings often give you what you really need, as well as (or in place of) what you're asking for, so maybe that's what's happening. As ever, I'll keep experimenting.

[MagiAwen]

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[Slater]

Remember BroM's post a while back: Angels are not "humans without bodies". They don't give a CRAP about nice and politeness and things we care about. In the human world "bending over" and showing humility and that you're subordinate is a way of not upsetting someone....in every other aspect of life, being the weakest/lowest or subordinate, will get you EATEN.
The word "command" suggests you're in charge and if you're doing an evocation...you SHOULD be. Its not insulting.

Say thanks after it's done...but you are in charge as a representative of God in an evocation. Angels are created to serve and minister to US in accordance with God's will. Is that not right?

In advice given to me, the attitude and language of the mind and mouth are of utmost importance and frankly...I don't get squat when I'm "on my knees" figuratively speaking. I'm speaking here of evocation obviously...but the NAP works well as it is...no need to start going all flower power with the language

I remember a thread where an angel said pretty much that only men use manners and hide their true meaning behind polite lies. They see speaking in less than absolute terms as deceitful and requires them to frustratingly "interpret" your meaning. They are NOT like us. They don't share our emotions or cultural concerns. Be careful not to anthropomorphize.

[Slater]

I don’t accept these things as sentient nor having free will, nor actually being beings.

Ever done an evocation to the physical and have one stand in front of you and speak? If you have...what did you make of it? Not being rude or challenging you...this place is full of opinions and I like hearing them.

[MagiAwen]

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[Slater]

Thanks for that.

I get where you're coming from.

[Zoe]

OK, I've solved my problem. I retain all the commanding language, and the words of power, since they may be necessary, sort of like issuing a computer command. Then when I provide my list of things I want it to do, I state that it is charged with carrying out all these things, EXCEPT those which it doesn't want to carry out. Technically, it is still a command, and I perform the invocation with authority. @Slater: If the spirit doesn't want to do X for me, I don't want it to do X. I don't make use of slaves, even ones that God has decided to provide me with. I guess I place my ethical code above God's. Oh well, I'm not pretending to be humble.

[MagiAwen]

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[Zoe]

Has it ever struck you odd that in one post you talk about punishing a human being and then talk about moral code and not treating demons as slaves? Doesn't matter, believe what you would like. I thought it was funny though.

It is not often that I actually issue an explicit warning to people.
That said. There is great danger in what you are about to do. However, feel free to do it. Feel free to look up nocebo effect, word/phrase negation and negative words in practice as well...clue: except is a negative word.

And my words are just that, nothing but. Let us know how it goes.

LOL the person I'm considering sending the IS after wronged me, the angel/whatever didn't. Having a moral code doesn't mean you turn the other cheek. Why do people think that? Anyway, the only danger in what I'm about to do is the danger that it won't work, which I can deal with.

-Z