Elubatel: Command or Be Grateful?

[Clayfield]

I have found gratitude and appreciation in general to have a benefit in the material world, but I don't really go in for making deals with Goetic demons. But Elubatel remains a mystery to me, because we're apparently dealing with an angel of omnipotence, rather than a demon, so the approach might need to be different.

One solution is to perform NAP exactly as the book states, but I don't think many people here do that. We're all putting in a bit of extra protection, ramping up the energy and so on. As such, we tamper. In doing so, I get to that point in the ritual where I'm addressing Elubatel, and I remain uncertain of the tone to use.

I wonder if perhaps it should be more the way a good manager would issue commands to workers; you don't ask them to do the work, you tell them, but if you're a good manager it feels like a respectful request rather than a harsh order. You say it politely, with the full expectation that your workers will do what they're asked because that's why they are there, and you don't need to offer them anything extra to coerce them into action.

I'll keep experimenting.

[Zoe]

OK, I've now read the entire "Thank-you card for demons" thread. I've concluded that I'm only wiling to work with spirits that will deal with me in good faith. MagiAwen, I think your dog analogy is very apt: some entities will interpret it as weakness if you attempt to do anything other than command them. I am still unwilling to command them, but I would like to know who they are so I can avoid dealing with them.

Does anyone have any insight into which spirits in NAP will not respond well to "I will do A for you if you do B for me?"

Thanks
-Zoe

[Noone]

/

[Clayfield]

How bout command and be greatful?

That sounds good. But there's the matter of timing. I think my problem is that I was going in all grateful and fawning at the outset, as though slightly afraid of Elubatel. The "demon thank-you cards" thread really helped to clarify the relationship status. Command, politely. Show some gratitude when results come (as an offering, if that's your way, or just by feeling it, which is probably my choice).

I've just done the ritual with all this in mind and had a truly mind-blowing experience. As mentioned earlier, I've previously felt as though I was nudging at Elubatel, or trying to get noticed. This time, it felt like everything was slotting into place perfectly. There was no resentment; if anything, it was the opposite. It felt like we were doing something successful together, because I was finally playing my part correctly.

I don't know about results yet, of course, but so far this approach - commanding with respectful authority - has made a huge difference to the magical experience.

[Noone]

/

[O Delano]

I've been searching around for the "Thank-you cards for demons" thread, and can't seem to find it. Can someone tell me which forum it's in, or provide a link?

[Clayfield]

I've been searching around for the "Thank-you cards for demons" thread, and can't seem to find it. Can someone tell me which forum it's in, or provide a link?

http://www.studioarcanis.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=368&hilit=demon+thank+you+cards

I haven't managed to make the link as short and pretty as some do, but hopefully this does the trick.

[O Delano]

Thanks! Of COURSE it's in the place I didn't quite think it would be in.

[Zoe]

Here's something else I thought of. It may be that the script given in the NAP rituals must be followed verbatim, for the same reason that when I issue a computer command, I need to type *precisely* the right word and hit enter, rather than typing "Hey, could you print this document? Thanx!"

But I'd only expect that to be true if these beings were some kind of non-sentient egregore, a magical computer script with no real intelligence or even self-awareness. If these beings are sentient, I think there would be more flexibility in the wording. I guess the only way to find out is to experiment.

Regarding the issues brought up in the "Thank-you card for demons" thread, is this a good working rule: angels will deal with me in good faith, while demons will be looking for a way to screw me over?

[Slater]

Never learned that you are supposed to give offerings. In fact, I learned that we are here to command, not to cajole or offer rewards. I get great results this way and always have.

Whenever I say thanks in my own way, (usually with a bit of incense...I don't make it more complicated than that) it's well after the deed is done. I never mention it during the actual working or make it a condition.

I suck at evocation to physical appearance (at the moment) , BUT I think the same principle of recognizing and accessing (for want of a better word) the divine authority within and utilizing that in calling on the angelics in the NAP, runs along the same lines as the state of mind/emotion or what-have-you in full blown evocation.

Either you are evoking from a position of authority and "right" or you're not. Perhaps that's the key to the language of the NAP, in particular when words like "command" are used? I know that's probably evocation 101 and old news to some here but it's something I've only recently experienced in my evocation practice.

As for thanking any of the NAP spirits, I just do the ritual as though I am going to follow through with it...but stop at the point of making the demand and instead, say thanks for whatever it is they did for me and say "this is for you" and leave the room with some chunks of frankincense burning. I don't do it every time either.