Elubatel: Command or Be Grateful?

[Clayfield]

I've noticed a lot of gratitude on these pages, especially when it comes to Elubatel. Some people seem to give quick thanks, others a full License To Depart, and some give physical offerings. From what I read, this really seems to help - but in the book itself, there is no mention of this. The Invocation itself seems to talk more of commanding Elubatel. So my question is, when doing the Invocation do you feel gratitude, or do you feel like you're commanding, exercising will or something else? Do you say the words - and command - but feel gratitude? Any and all advice appreciated.

[Noone]

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[Clayfield]

Thanks Noone. I only began working with NAP quite recently, and had astonishing results with Nitika. Although I felt gratitude when the results came in, I performed the ritual with a strong sense of authority, and did not worry about feeling respect.

I then read a lot about Elubatel on this forum and felt a great deal of respect based on reputation, before I even began. This made it difficult to feel the same sense of authority. It felt strange to feel respect (as you would for a friend or superior) and also to issue commands. So I've felt a conflict, as though I'm ordering somebody around when I don't have the right. I've had no results that I can measure, with Elubatel. I feel a presence, without a doubt, but it's almost like I'm being watched and weighed up, rather than anything else.

Although the invocation uses respectful words such as "mighty" and "faultless", it also says "obey me", which I'd never say to a friend, equal or superior. In fact, I wouldn't say it to anybody. Of course, we're working with something other than a friend, but is it possible to tell Elubatel to obey you, while also feeling great respect?

[Noone]

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[Super Celestials]

Hi Clayfield,

This very discussion has come up in previous posts a while back, so quite honestly, it's natural to think and go through what you are experiencing as others have before you -- you might look back at the early postings and see what others have written, I haven't looked lately, but they are probably still there.

I had the same reaction that you did, I didn't want to 'command' Elubatel or any other Spirit, and so I struggled a bit with the words. But, Geoff Gray-Cobb also points out in either his NAP book and/or in the Mystical Grimoire that the Spirits are understanding and that if we make a mistake due to inexperience, they will understand. I stretched this to also include that they would understand that I essentially didn't want to "command" Elubatel in the imperious sense, but that those words were almost like a key turning within a lock, which had to be said but which I happen to say with reverence.

I actually asked for something once which came true almost unbelievably, and I was so magnificantly stunned that, at this point, I feel a little concerned because I didn't reap further benefits that I might have if I had applied more energy -- I now see that I could have utilized the opportunity further, but, at the time was overwhelmed with the need to deal with some other things in my environment and never followed up on the great chance I was offered. I hope I get a 'do-over'!

It will work out for you, you'll find the best way --

[Clayfield]

Thanks Super Celestials. I really wanted to avoid upsetting anybody by repeating an old question, so I did lurk and search and read for a long time, but somehow I managed to miss the previous conversations about this. So thanks for taking the time to expand on this, as I know people get frustrated by repeats of obvious questions.

You've really helped, there, though. I like the analogy of the words being like a key within a lock. I'll try that next time. Many thanks.

[Slater]

I take the perspective that many if not all of the Kabbalistic angels etc were egegores at one time and the belif and worship created them. Where as with voudou and the likes its more like the spirit is extremely ancient and more primal.

Maybe but there are some very old angels in NAP. Lelahel & Mahasiah for example are Shem ha-Mephorash angels which makes just the record of them (Exodus about 1450BC ) being around 3500yo.

Of course the Judeo-Christian perspective (the paradigm in which these beings belong) is that angels were created before man and some believe that ALL the angels were created at one time. I guess you just have to ask them

[Zoe]

I'm also uncomfortable with the wording in NAP. But I'm not going to beg and cajole either. Has anyone tried using a more businesslike tone and wording, along the lines of "Mighty spirit A, I request that you do B, in exchange for which I will burn a purple votive candle dressed in spearmint oil," etc. BTW thank you BrotherM for your wonderful page on rewarding the spirits.

[MagiAwen]

..

[Zoe]

Hi MagiAwen,

I agree that, at least in certain workings (e.g. Goetia), there is no need to give something in return, make a deal with the spirit, etc. For reasons I don't understand, it seems that they have to do what you command them to do. However, my own personal ethics prevent me from working in this way. If it were Roman times and someone gave me a slave, whom for whatever reason I couldn't free, I would tell them "I'm not going to order you to do anything. I might make you an offer sometimes, like 'If you do A for me I'll do B for you', but feel free to turn it down and there won't be any repercussions."

I don't care whether the spirit is evil; whatever they did, it wasn't to me. So, I guess I've answered my own question. I refuse to compel them/use the commanding wording. I will have to strike a deal. If that doesn't work or bad things happen for some strange reason as a result of this approach, I'll just have to walk away from this system.