Odd Insights into Hekate

Syncretic Egyptian / Graeco-Roman magic from the collection of texts known as the Papyri Graecae Magicae.
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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#121 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:30 pm

blackpheonix wrote:Lol hey why don’t you tell that tonSaint Augusta of Hippo since he wrote about her specifically in rebuttles. It seems for all your long scholarly dissertation you can’t google Christian response to Hekate. But then again Christian mythology tends to have a blind eye to anything that doesn’t sit well with it. ..


Though just for argument (debate) sake i'd present a theory on how Porphyry is using Hecate in his Philosophy from Oracles (De Philosophia ex Oraculis Haurienda) and the exact Oracle from Hecate. Unfortunately we do not know exactly when it was written as it is debated if it was written at the beginning of his life or later part of his life. Either way his life time was c 234 A.D. to c 305 A.D. for reference.

First and for most though Porphyry is calling upon antiquity to give his writing authority and legitimacy. He speaks of judges or right minded people being responsible for putting people (Christ) to death as revealed by Apollo. Yet Apollo gives the idea of legitimacy to his idea of justice being the god of justice and one called upon in antiquity for justice and vengence. In that capacity he is calling back to Hellene lore and influence.

Yet he also uses Apollo as a figure to step back to Jewish history as a god of justice. Only in this instance through a fragment referencing the idea of God the Generator and how the deities themselves are afraid of the Father whom the holy Hebrews honor.

Apollo is both the voice of Porphyry's though and opinon but also the voice of antiquity. He is the long arm of historical justice, reason and legitimacy passed down through the ages. The connection that bridges the past to the present and touches upon the cultural and social mindset. What one might say is an appeal to the deeper historical deep history of the people and their roots.

However, great pain is taken to separate Christ (Jesus) from Christianity as a whole through the referenced fragments. Unfortunately all that can be done is speculate that this line of though continues through out the Oracles of Hecate. This separation of the man from the insitution will continue through Hecate's oracle revelation.

Yet Hecate by design is not an oracle goddess. So the inclusion of Apollo gives Hecate legitimacy as an oracle. It gives an impression of Delphi and perhaps even the Sybil of Rome itself. Perhaps even in the readers mind the suggestion that Apollo has bestowed that gift upon her.

In each instance Hecate basically acknowledges Christ (Jesus) as a most pious man. That his soul will be dowered with immortality after death. All aspect pertaining to Christ as an individual while separating the man from the religion and attempting to worship him. That even in worshipping him its created an error or evil gift.

So Hecate here is sort of following two strains of perspective. On one hand she is following the Platonic / Chaldean ideal of the individual and the body is always exposed to torments but the soul of the pious abide in heaven.

Yet there is also a second thread here. That is the thread that was ongoing in the very ranks of early Christianity at the time Porphyry wrote this. That is the ongoing issue of "Was Jesus man or was Jesus divine?" The very oracles given by Hecate do more to address this issue of Jesus' divinity than any other issue. A question that was in many was splitting the early church and would not be resolved until the First Council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

By his rebuttal we probably can assume that Augustine fell into the Christ was Divine camp and Porphyry probably fell into the he was simply a man camp.

One could claim that Apollo and Hecate are used more for letigimacy and continuation to connect to historical memory than to be used as actual god and goddess. Hecate speaks more to current issues within the church and its dividing factors both within the author's mindset and beliefs than in Hecate's influence as a Chaldean / Platonic influence. Her presence from what little we have is more of a benefit to cultural and historical memory than anything else.

I grant that these conclusions are very suspect given the actual Oracle is lost and all that remains are a few reference lines. Lines that we have no preceding or following lines to put them into perspective to gauge what the author might have been trying to imply.

But I am willing to debate the conclusions
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Nashimiron
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#122 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:12 am

Presumably Christ would fit into the Platonic conception of the Hero. He could be seen as playing the Daimonic role toward Christians as Proclus describes Socrates playing in his interaction with Alcibiades. Asuming this notion was current in Porphyry's day and not a new idea of Proclus. So, from a Platonic perspective he could be 'worshipped' as a Hero, or rather offerings made to him, but it would be wrong to treat him as a god, as this would be a category error sort of thing.

It's interesting to think how Philosophers would think of Messiahs. They didn't tend to go for accepting anyone's word or unverified personal revelations uncritically.

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Nashimiron
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#123 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:19 am

I imagine oracles were used politically from the get go, not just in the conflict with Christianity. It wasn't just Goes who bent the gods to their wills, the politicians were 10 times worse!

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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#124 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:12 am

Nashimiron wrote:Presumably Christ would fit into the Platonic conception of the Hero. He could be seen as playing the Daimonic role toward Christians as Proclus describes Socrates playing in his interaction with Alcibiades. Asuming this notion was current in Porphyry's day and not a new idea of Proclus. So, from a Platonic perspective he could be 'worshipped' as a Hero, or rather offerings made to him, but it would be wrong to treat him as a god, as this would be a category error sort of thing.

It's interesting to think how Philosophers would think of Messiahs. They didn't tend to go for accepting anyone's word or unverified personal revelations uncritically.


I agree. I think the Apollo side of the Hecate Oracles speaks to the Hero aspect and it being right to honor that. That's more of where it's right to acknowledge the strengths and tribulations of the body and what he underwent It all being part of his faithfulness in life. Just my own opinion but I think Porphyry used imagery from the Hellene world for comparison a lot. I think he'd be trying to depict Christ along the lines of the Hellene hero's and proper honoring / worship would be similar to that.

one site put it like this

Christ Jesus has an immortal soul and is immortal like Greek heroes, such as Dionysus and Hercules, and his immortality is due to him because of his faithfulness. He should be praised for being a hero, but he should not be worshipped.

http://www.saintdominicsmedia.com/porph ... -response/
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Nashimiron
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#125 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:04 am

That makes sense from the Greek Philosophical perspective.

I wonder what the Jewish tradition actually says about worshipping the Messiah - their god is a jealous god, and half of the bible involves him trashing other gods till he's the only one left. He might not approve of people worshipping the Messiah as a proxy! The Oracles are probably more in line with what Sabaoth intended than the church. :D

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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#126 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:57 am

Nashimiron wrote:That makes sense from the Greek Philosophical perspective.

I wonder what the Jewish tradition actually says about worshipping the Messiah - their god is a jealous god, and half of the bible involves him trashing other gods till he's the only one left. He might not approve of people worshipping the Messiah as a proxy! The Oracles are probably more in line with what Sabaoth intended than the church. :D


That aspect I have no idea about. Could be an interesting discussion though. Realistically though I doubt the Church of the times wouldn't care what the Hebrew's would have though. Figure they barely recognized James' place in the Church history. Think that is what Jesus' brother's name was who took over upon his death. The Christian's pretty much figure everything start's with Paul after the death of Jesus.


Just a guess on my part but I think Porphyry's initial Oracle's probably irritated the church as it questioned things. But they didn't come out and directly challenge them or the status quo. It's when he writes "Against the Christian's that it seem's things really go wrong and the Church turns it's full attention upon him. Even going so far as to order the destruction of all copies of both writings. However, I am not sure if Oracles was entirely destroyed or just certain sections for it seems some sections might have survived.

Haven't gotten a copy yet but it seem's there might be a copy of partial copy of the Oracle of Apollo (that seems to be the greater name for the Oracle of Hecate) that survived. It seems there was a Tubingen Theosophy written about 500 C.E. that is a probable forgery of a Christian Oracle of Apollo. It contain's part's of Porphyry's Oracle, perhaps more than what is contained in Augustine's rebuttal. Discussion was presented in the International Journal of the Classical Tradition in Sept 1997, Vol 4, Issue 1, pp 3-22

I'm debating about ordering the article to see if and how Hecate is mentioned and treated in it. It's $40 US currency, not a lot yet still a lot on a limited budget for something that may not further my knowledge.
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Nashimiron
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#127 » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:00 am

monsnoleedra wrote:It seems there was a Tubingen Theosophy written about 500 C.E. that is a probable forgery of a Christian Oracle of Apollo. It contain's part's of Porphyry's Oracle, perhaps more than what is contained in Augustine's rebuttal. Discussion was presented in the International Journal of the Classical Tradition in Sept 1997, Vol 4, Issue 1, pp 3-22

I'm debating about ordering the article to see if and how Hecate is mentioned and treated in it. It's $40 US currency, not a lot yet still a lot on a limited budget for something that may not further my knowledge.


It is a risk paying for a journal article if it might not have anything to add to what you already know. Is it on Jstor? What's the article called? Sometimes they get reprinted in other journals or in books.

Also, you could probably order it to read in the reference section of a library.

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Pleiades
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#128 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:59 am

monsnoleedra wrote:
Nashimiron wrote:That makes sense from the Greek Philosophical perspective.

I wonder what the Jewish tradition actually says about worshipping the Messiah - their god is a jealous god, and half of the bible involves him trashing other gods till he's the only one left. He might not approve of people worshipping the Messiah as a proxy! The Oracles are probably more in line with what Sabaoth intended than the church. :D


That aspect I have no idea about. Could be an interesting discussion though. Realistically though I doubt the Church of the times wouldn't care what the Hebrew's would have though. Figure they barely recognized James' place in the Church history. Think that is what Jesus' brother's name was who took over upon his death. The Christian's pretty much figure everything start's with Paul after the death of Jesus.


Just a guess on my part but I think Porphyry's initial Oracle's probably irritated the church as it questioned things. But they didn't come out and directly challenge them or the status quo. It's when he writes "Against the Christian's that it seem's things really go wrong and the Church turns it's full attention upon him. Even going so far as to order the destruction of all copies of both writings. However, I am not sure if Oracles was entirely destroyed or just certain sections for it seems some sections might have survived.

Haven't gotten a copy yet but it seem's there might be a copy of partial copy of the Oracle of Apollo (that seems to be the greater name for the Oracle of Hecate) that survived. It seems there was a Tubingen Theosophy written about 500 C.E. that is a probable forgery of a Christian Oracle of Apollo. It contain's part's of Porphyry's Oracle, perhaps more than what is contained in Augustine's rebuttal. Discussion was presented in the International Journal of the Classical Tradition in Sept 1997, Vol 4, Issue 1, pp 3-22

I'm debating about ordering the article to see if and how Hecate is mentioned and treated in it. It's $40 US currency, not a lot yet still a lot on a limited budget for something that may not further my knowledge.

Paul certainly had a huge impact on the idea of a Messianic role in later eschatology but that is another story .I found this thesis you might like to peruse
https://www.academia.edu/36311947/Zeus_the_Head_Zeus_the_Middle-_Studies_in_the_Orphic_Theogonies_-_PhD_Dissertation_2015.pdf

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Chrysophylax
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#129 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 1:11 pm

A couple of years ago, it was all the rage to conflate Hecate with Magot of the grimoires.

The reasoning was several pages long, but it boiled down to a couple of major points. The first is the oddball nature of Magot compared to other well-known demons and yet Magot/Maguth is usually listed as one of the top-tier infernal rulers. Lack of direction plus obsession with Greek goddesses, and there you have Magot as a mask for Hecate in the same way that Egyn is a mask for Agni.

You who know the lore of Hecate, is this a doctrine that revealed itself in the glowing embers of someone's bong, or is there a grain of reason behind it?

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Pleiades
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#130 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:18 pm

Chrysophylax wrote:A couple of years ago, it was all the rage to conflate Hecate with Magot of the grimoires.

The reasoning was several pages long, but it boiled down to a couple of major points. The first is the oddball nature of Magot compared to other well-known demons and yet Magot/Maguth is usually listed as one of the top-tier infernal rulers. Lack of direction plus obsession with Greek goddesses, and there you have Magot as a mask for Hecate in the same way that Egyn is a mask for Agni.

You who know the lore of Hecate, is this a doctrine that revealed itself in the glowing embers of someone's bong, or is there a grain of reason behind it?

That name is obscure.I wonder about its etymology which appears to be close to Maggot from OE or Magath meaning Maiden.I found a claimed original sigil for this demon which was quite complex and included in its composition were sigils used in witchcraft that represent both the directions of East and West and combined are taken as a general appellation for a Goddess.
As Magot is listed as a Prince the associations with Ashtaroth in the Kabbala,the attribution to the Emperor and the Moon in the Tarot suggest Magot to be androgynous.This could explain the association with a Goddess but not specifically to Hekate unless we see Magot as a Lord of Death.
Obviously the conflation with Hekate was geared around her later attribution to death rather than her role as nurturing Mother.Interesting to see if others can provide a more definitive answer.

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