Odd Insights into Hekate

Syncretic Egyptian / Graeco-Roman magic from the collection of texts known as the Papyri Graecae Magicae.
User avatar

monsnoleedra
Philosophus
Posts: 372

Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#111 » Tue May 29, 2018 7:18 am

Bumper wrote:For what it is worth, here is the start of my invocation to Hekate:

I call on the Great Goddess Hekate, favoured Titaness, Queen of Heaven, Queen of Hell, Queen of the Underworld, Earth and Sea. Queen of Magic, Queen of the Night. Queen of the Crossroads, Spirits and Keys, Keeper of the Divine Flame. It is with great happiness and joy that I invite you to this circle, Great Goddess of the Witches....


I like it. One question for clarification though, the divine flame is that a reference to the word soul fame from the Chaldean aspect?
Can't Never Did Nothing Till It Tried!

User avatar

Bumper
Practicus
Posts: 228

Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#112 » Tue May 29, 2018 4:19 pm

monsnoleedra wrote:
Bumper wrote:For what it is worth, here is the start of my invocation to Hekate:

I call on the Great Goddess Hekate, favoured Titaness, Queen of Heaven, Queen of Hell, Queen of the Underworld, Earth and Sea. Queen of Magic, Queen of the Night. Queen of the Crossroads, Spirits and Keys, Keeper of the Divine Flame. It is with great happiness and joy that I invite you to this circle, Great Goddess of the Witches....


I like it. One question for clarification though, the divine flame is that a reference to the word soul fame from the Chaldean aspect?


Yes it is a reference to the world soul flame from the Oracles.
Cheper en emdo jen, shesep en heka-o jen

User avatar

monsnoleedra
Philosophus
Posts: 372

Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#113 » Tue May 29, 2018 6:21 pm

Bumper wrote:
monsnoleedra wrote:
Bumper wrote:For what it is worth, here is the start of my invocation to Hekate:

I call on the Great Goddess Hekate, favoured Titaness, Queen of Heaven, Queen of Hell, Queen of the Underworld, Earth and Sea. Queen of Magic, Queen of the Night. Queen of the Crossroads, Spirits and Keys, Keeper of the Divine Flame. It is with great happiness and joy that I invite you to this circle, Great Goddess of the Witches....


I like it. One question for clarification though, the divine flame is that a reference to the word soul fame from the Chaldean aspect?


Yes it is a reference to the world soul flame from the Oracles.


Thank you
Can't Never Did Nothing Till It Tried!


blackpheonix
Neophyte
Posts: 16

Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#114 » Wed May 30, 2018 7:43 pm

You can google as far as sacrificial rites to the underworld to find that appeasement of a “gate keeper” was nessicary depending on how far back it might have changed from animal to fruit or veggies to silver to a number of things. It’s not needed for the most part though since as you mentioned the gateway is also located inside the etheric body or can be accessed by other non invasive means. The Divine flame can be interpreted in that aspect yes it can also allude to her lesser known mysteries. Hecate is incredible complex and over 2000 years ago or so she was one of the main competitors against the budding religious cult of Christianity. There might have even been some scholars who equates her with Sophia the Christ expieranced but that isn’t a popular opinion and one you have to do a lot of digging to find. Hope this helped.

User avatar

monsnoleedra
Philosophus
Posts: 372

Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#115 » Thu May 31, 2018 3:49 am

blackpheonix wrote:You can google as far as sacrificial rites to the underworld to find that appeasement of a “gate keeper” was nessicary depending on how far back it might have changed from animal to fruit or veggies to silver to a number of things. It’s not needed for the most part though since as you mentioned the gateway is also located inside the etheric body or can be accessed by other non invasive means. The Divine flame can be interpreted in that aspect yes it can also allude to her lesser known mysteries. Hecate is incredible complex and over 2000 years ago or so she was one of the main competitors against the budding religious cult of Christianity. There might have even been some scholars who equates her with Sophia the Christ expieranced but that isn’t a popular opinion and one you have to do a lot of digging to find. Hope this helped.


Man your doing some bouncing here and making some assumptions as well.

Hekate was never a competitor to Christianity, Artemis was a competitor to Christianity though one might argue that was in her conflated persona as Diana, especially at Ephesus. A competition that further carries over in a comparison of names and usages between Sophia and perhaps the Cult of Mary also originating out of Ephesus. But again Hekate has little to no bearing on that except to the extent of her being conflated with Artemis.

Even if you take the broader assumption of Hekate's conflation with the Roman Triformus she still does not easily compete against the idea of Sophia or Christianity. That again will fall back upon the conflation of Artemis and Diana and the influence of the Cult of Mary within Italy itself.

I am curious as to what these lessor mysterious are you are referring to regarding Hekate. To be honest the only ones I can guess about would be her role in the lessor mysteries of the total Eleusinian Mysteries. However, since we still do not know what the actual mysteries were or what was done you can't be talking about those. Unless your talking about the purification aspects of the lessor mysteries that we do know about. But then again that is pretty common and wasn't exactly unique to that mystery group alone.

It is possible, though not proven, that Hekate / Triformus might have had some sort of presence in the mysteries that took place at Lake Nemi in Italy. That is suggested by the coinage depicting three figures standing side by side with one holding a bow, one appears to be holding a knife and I don't recall what the last holds. They are under the grove of cypress tree's. The area better known for Diana Nemorensis and the Rex Nemorensis.

The next larger mystery I can think of would probably be at Stratonecia (sp) / Lagina and that would be the Procession of the Key. Even then I use the term "Mystery" loosely regarding the Procession of the Key as we don't really know what all was involved with that other than it was done probably twice a year and moved from the temple to the city and back. What all it entailed and it's purpose is still not fully understood or revealed. Yet it was an important procession and temple function.

Other than the Chaldean oracles I am not aware of any instances where she is referred to as a flame or soul. It's pretty specific in fact to that particular oracle practice and stands pretty well in contrast to her dark magic persona of the time. Tied to the 3, 4 or 5 animal headed figure imagery, though granted the 5 headed is extremely rare.

When you tie sacrifice to the underworld and gatekeepers together then you narrow the field down to basically three. Cerebus, Charon and the Hyrda. Well I suppose in later stories you could add Medusa in her disgraced persona though she's not so much a gatekeeper as just punished. But you don't make sacrifice to Cerebus or they Hydra as they guard to keep the dead from coming back out or basically wandering away.

So pretty much you just have Charon, the boatman. Which is the only point you needed silver or money to pass any gatekeeper into the underworld.

Herder wise you basically had just Hermes and to some extent Hekate. Yet Hekate doesn't gather just anyone as Hermes does, she sort of gathers the restless dead or the special dead one might say. The other thing is the stories never really say that she takes them in via the same way that Hermes does either. Hermes takes them in as far as Charon, or more specifically to the shore and leaves them. Figure if they do not have the money then they are left on the shore until their living relatives make the appropriate offerings, rituals, ceremonies and such to afford them passage into the underworld. That's were Cerebus comes in to make sure they can't get back out once in.

There-in is where the underworld offerings and sacrifices also come into play. To get the restless dead into the underworld and to get those already in at times into a better place when the shades are not at rest. That's part of the Apotropaic offerings & sacrifices to the chthonian divinities and entities. You were not appeasing the gatekeeper you were appeasing the spirit of the restless dead and such. Keeping the evil and bad things at bay and putting them to rest. One of the reason you see the gorgon figure's on temple pediments, to keep the restless dead and evil away. They worked in conjunction with Hekate's rule and command basically.

Can't say for other's but animal guide's basically shape shifted you to pass by for you weren't in human form and the shades didn't see you as human. Other entities could pass you through in human form such as higher daemon's or divinities themselves while you were in human form. Yet one of the problem's there is that all human spirits are pulled to the various well's and the guide's serve to keep you from drinking. Though I honestly think everyone drinks to some degree, even when the guide takes you for it seems all of us exit with some loss of memory of the place. If only to protect our own sanity.

But then again there is a difference between entering by dying and entering by other means.
Can't Never Did Nothing Till It Tried!


blackpheonix
Neophyte
Posts: 16

Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#116 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 2:13 pm

Lol hey why don’t you tell that tonSaint Augusta of Hippo since he wrote about her specifically in rebuttles. It seems for all your long scholarly dissertation you can’t google Christian response to Hekate. But then again Christian mythology tends to have a blind eye to anything that doesn’t sit well with it. The gatekeeper statement was specific to working with the underworld and includes Hecate but isn’t specific to her a google search would have also shown you that. If you look at the transmigration of spiritual practice you can see this common thread stretching from Africa to Asia into Europe and almost every where.

User avatar

monsnoleedra
Philosophus
Posts: 372

Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#117 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:58 pm

blackpheonix wrote:Lol hey why don’t you tell that tonSaint Augusta of Hippo since he wrote about her specifically in rebuttles. It seems for all your long scholarly dissertation you can’t google Christian response to Hekate. But then again Christian mythology tends to have a blind eye to anything that doesn’t sit well with it. The gatekeeper statement was specific to working with the underworld and includes Hecate but isn’t specific to her a google search would have also shown you that. If you look at the transmigration of spiritual practice you can see this common thread stretching from Africa to Asia into Europe and almost every where.


Ah you speak of that lovely little track called St. Augustine's "City Of God and Christine Doctrine" and Porphyry’s Account of the Responses Given by the Oracles of the gods Concerning Christ from chapter 23. A supposed oracle revelation from the God Apollo and apparently spoken by Hecate regarding "Christ"

But I wonder have you actually read the tracks your referencing? The actual tracks do more to praise and support the Christian ideal of Christ than compete against his divinity and purity. It sort of fall into line with the Chaldean idea of things with which she was associated with at the time. Yet also used in contrast to what was being suggested by Apollo's presence in the same point in the oracle.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf102.iv.XIX.23.html

But perhaps instead of saying "google it" maybe add substance yourself to this instead of a veiled slam and nothing else. Perhaps even better an actual source reference. Regarding the underworld in general this thread wasn't about the underworld in general it was about odd insights into Hekate. So once again you bounce around and really say nothing of substance, though I grant that is my own opinion.

Edited to add:

I admit that Porphry did claim that Christianity itself was not the greatest. That by following Jesus many people were wrongly lead astray even though Jesus himself was a good man. But then again Porphry and his "Philosophy of Oracles" and "Against the Christians" is sort of hard to comment upon as neither exist anymore. So we only have supposed excerpts of what was supposed to have been written to comment upon. Realistically having to acknowledge that what we have is the victor's account in most instances and slanted to justify that position.
Last edited by monsnoleedra on Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Can't Never Did Nothing Till It Tried!

User avatar

Bumper
Practicus
Posts: 228

Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#118 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:06 pm

monsnoleedra wrote:
Hekate was never a competitor to Christianity, Artemis was a competitor to Christianity though one might argue that was in her conflated persona as Diana, especially at Ephesus. A competition that further carries over in a comparison of names and usages between Sophia and perhaps the Cult of Mary also originating out of Ephesus. But again Hekate has little to no bearing on that except to the extent of her being conflated with Artemis.

Even if you take the broader assumption of Hekate's conflation with the Roman Triformus she still does not easily compete against the idea of Sophia or Christianity. That again will fall back upon the conflation of Artemis and Diana and the influence of the Cult of Mary within Italy itself.

I am curious as to what these lessor mysterious are you are referring to regarding Hekate. To be honest the only ones I can guess about would be her role in the lessor mysteries of the total Eleusinian Mysteries. However, since we still do not know what the actual mysteries were or what was done you can't be talking about those. Unless your talking about the purification aspects of the lessor mysteries that we do know about. But then again that is pretty common and wasn't exactly unique to that mystery group alone.

It is possible, though not proven, that Hekate / Triformus might have had some sort of presence in the mysteries that took place at Lake Nemi in Italy. That is suggested by the coinage depicting three figures standing side by side with one holding a bow, one appears to be holding a knife and I don't recall what the last holds. They are under the grove of cypress tree's. The area better known for Diana Nemorensis and the Rex Nemorensis.

The next larger mystery I can think of would probably be at Stratonecia (sp) / Lagina and that would be the Procession of the Key. Even then I use the term "Mystery" loosely regarding the Procession of the Key as we don't really know what all was involved with that other than it was done probably twice a year and moved from the temple to the city and back. What all it entailed and it's purpose is still not fully understood or revealed. Yet it was an important procession and temple function.

Other than the Chaldean oracles I am not aware of any instances where she is referred to as a flame or soul. It's pretty specific in fact to that particular oracle practice and stands pretty well in contrast to her dark magic persona of the time. Tied to the 3, 4 or 5 animal headed figure imagery, though granted the 5 headed is extremely rare.

When you tie sacrifice to the underworld and gatekeepers together then you narrow the field down to basically three. Cerebus, Charon and the Hyrda. Well I suppose in later stories you could add Medusa in her disgraced persona though she's not so much a gatekeeper as just punished. But you don't make sacrifice to Cerebus or they Hydra as they guard to keep the dead from coming back out or basically wandering away.

So pretty much you just have Charon, the boatman. Which is the only point you needed silver or money to pass any gatekeeper into the underworld.

Herder wise you basically had just Hermes and to some extent Hekate. Yet Hekate doesn't gather just anyone as Hermes does, she sort of gathers the restless dead or the special dead one might say. The other thing is the stories never really say that she takes them in via the same way that Hermes does either. Hermes takes them in as far as Charon, or more specifically to the shore and leaves them. Figure if they do not have the money then they are left on the shore until their living relatives make the appropriate offerings, rituals, ceremonies and such to afford them passage into the underworld. That's were Cerebus comes in to make sure they can't get back out once in.

There-in is where the underworld offerings and sacrifices also come into play. To get the restless dead into the underworld and to get those already in at times into a better place when the shades are not at rest. That's part of the Apotropaic offerings & sacrifices to the chthonian divinities and entities. You were not appeasing the gatekeeper you were appeasing the spirit of the restless dead and such. Keeping the evil and bad things at bay and putting them to rest. One of the reason you see the gorgon figure's on temple pediments, to keep the restless dead and evil away. They worked in conjunction with Hekate's rule and command basically.

Can't say for other's but animal guide's basically shape shifted you to pass by for you weren't in human form and the shades didn't see you as human. Other entities could pass you through in human form such as higher daemon's or divinities themselves while you were in human form. Yet one of the problem's there is that all human spirits are pulled to the various well's and the guide's serve to keep you from drinking. Though I honestly think everyone drinks to some degree, even when the guide takes you for it seems all of us exit with some loss of memory of the place. If only to protect our own sanity.

But then again there is a difference between entering by dying and entering by other means.


Great post Monsoleedra. Do you have any preferred sources to read up on the 'procession of the key'? I haven't come across this before.
Cheper en emdo jen, shesep en heka-o jen

User avatar

monsnoleedra
Philosophus
Posts: 372

Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#119 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:03 pm

Bumper wrote: Great post Monsoleedra. Do you have any preferred sources to read up on the 'procession of the key'? I haven't come across this before.


This one is harder to address. You never really find more than a paragraph or two on the event itself. Occasionally an inscription that has been translated pertaining to who dedicated the thing but not about the procession. However, the inscriptions seem to suggest the procession physically or symbolically pertained to locking and unlocking the city gates. Which might suggest keeping evil and unwanted things out and only permitting desired things passage within.

Of note the inscriptions are not presented in the book only referenced in a footnote.

The procession is between the temple at Lagina and Stratonicea 11 km away and was known as the Kleidos Agoge. Most books I see refer back to the book RESTLESS DEAD, Encounters between the Living and the Dead in Ancient Greece by Sarah Iles Johnston, University of California Press, 1999, ISBN 0-520-21707-I, p206

If you haven't read it I'd recommend the book.
Last edited by monsnoleedra on Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Can't Never Did Nothing Till It Tried!

User avatar

Bumper
Practicus
Posts: 228

Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#120 » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:46 pm

monsnoleedra wrote:
Bumper wrote: Great post Monsoleedra. Do you have any preferred sources to read up on the 'procession of the key'? I haven't come across this before.


This one is harder to address. You never really find more than a paragraph or two on the event itself. Occasionally an inscription that has been translated pertaining to who dedicated the thing but not about the procession. However, the inscriptions seem to suggest the procession physically or symbolically pertained to locking and unlocking the city gates. Which might suggest keeping evil and unwanted things out and only permitting desired things passage within.

Of note the inscriptions are not presented in the book only referenced in a footnote.

The procession is between the temple at Laginia and Stratonicea 11 km away and was known as the Kleidos Agoge. Most books I see refer back to the book RESTLESS DEAD, Encounters between the Living and the Dead in Ancient Greece by Sarah Iles Johnston, University of California Press, 1999, ISBN 0-520-21707-I, p206

If you haven't read it I'd recommend the book.
Thank you for this, I will definitely track down a copy.
Cheper en emdo jen, shesep en heka-o jen

Return to “Greek Magical Papyri (PGM)”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest