Odd Insights into Hekate

Syncretic Egyptian / Graeco-Roman magic from the collection of texts known as the Papyri Graecae Magicae.
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Pleiades
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#81 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:32 pm

This does seem to be the case.From Apollomius Rhodius Argonautica 3.1214 the Chorus is;

Lord sun and holy fire,sword of Hekate of the roads
which she carries over Olympus as she attends
as she traverses the sacred crossroads of the land
crowned with oak and the woven coils of snakes,falling on her shoulders


Daniel Ogden assumes the Chorus was made up of Medea's witch attendants.Plant Drug magic was their speciality including prescriptions for the aversion of the eyes during the cutting of animals throats being sacrificed= -Magic,Witchcraft and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds Oxford 3009

Have you seen Magika Hiera by Faraone and Oblink?

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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#82 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:23 pm

Yeah, I have Magika Hiera. Has a 1991 Copyright by Oxford University Press, don't think there is a newer version that has been released. Been sometime since I read it but it's one of my reference books and go to sources.
Can't Never Did Nothing Till It Tried!

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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#83 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:44 pm

Pleiades wrote:This does seem to be the case.From Apollomius Rhodius Argonautica 3.1214 the Chorus is;

Lord sun and holy fire,sword of Hekate of the roads
which she carries over Olympus as she attends
as she traverses the sacred crossroads of the land
crowned with oak and the woven coils of snakes,falling on her shoulders


Daniel Ogden assumes the Chorus was made up of Medea's witch attendants.Plant Drug magic was their speciality including prescriptions for the aversion of the eyes during the cutting of animals throats being sacrificed= -Magic,Witchcraft and Ghosts in the Greek and Roman Worlds Oxford 3009

Have you seen Magika Hiera by Faraone and Oblink?


You know I've been looking at multiple copies of the Argonautica now and especially book section 3.1214 trying to find a copy that includes the chorus section and can't find one. The Perseus Digital Library project doesn't have a copy with the chorus included in either it' Latin or Greek copy.

I figured the Apollonius Rhodius - The Argonautica (R.C. Seaton) Loeb Classical Library 1919 would have it as it's a Hellene & English page to page translation but it doesn't have it either.

So really wondering where it came from now. It's not in 3.1214 from what I can find. Jason is alone in the meadow at that point and making his offerings and calling upon her and she's rising up from the fire. Yet the serpents are coiling about the oak boughs not upon her shoulders.

Just as an aside thing but here is one of the transcribed original Hellene texts from Sophocles, which shows it was Enodia

Helie despota kai pur hieron,
tes Einodias Hekates egchos,
to di Oulumpou polousa pherei
kai ges naious' hieras tridous
stephanosamene drui kai plektais
omon speiraisi drakonton

(Text: A. Nauck, Tragicorum Gracecorum Fragemnta 2 Vols. (Leipzig 1889) Fr, 492, cf. T. Kraus, Hekate Heidelber 1960, p.87) The Goddess Hekate, Edited by Stephen Ronan, 1992, CHTHONIOS books, pg 75
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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#84 » Sat Apr 07, 2018 5:30 pm

Just to cover my bases I even checked the Orphic Argonautica to see if it might be included there but saw nothing. Though the Orphic Argonautica has a differing image of Hekate. Had forgotten about that as I had not read it in some time.

" .. Suddenly the pit blazed up, and the deadly fire crackled, and the unclean flame sent high its smoke. at once, on the far side of the fire, the terrible, fearful, savage goddesses arose. One had a body of iron. The dead call her Pandora. With her came one who takes on various shapes, having three heads, a deadly monster you do not wish to know: Hecate of Tartarus. From her left shoulder leapt a horse with a long mane. On her right should there could be seen a dog with a maddened face. The middle head had the shape of a lion /or snake/ of wild form. In her hand she held a well-hilted sword. Pandora and Hecate circled the pit, moving this way and that, and the furies leapt with them. Suddenly the wooden guardian statue of Artemis dropped its torches from its hands and raised its eyes to heaven. Her canine companions fawned. The bolts of the silver bars were loosened, and the beautiful gates of the thick walls opened; and the sacred grove within came into view."
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Pleiades
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#85 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 12:41 pm

The Chorus was taken from Ogden as cited above.Then there is:

(fragment from the play the Rhizotomoi)
(Text: A. Nauck, Tragicorum Graecorum Fragmenta 2 vols. [Leipzig 1889]. Fr
492; cf. T. Kraus Hekate Heidelberg 1960, p. 87.)

O MASTER HELIOS and Sacred Fire

O spear of Hekate of the Crossroads

Which she bears as she travels Olympus

And dwells in the holy triple-ways of the Earth

She who is crowned with oak-leaves

And the coils of wild snakes.


Text: MS 2014
Helie despota kai pur hieron,
tes Einodias Hekates egchos,
to di' Oulumpou polousa pherei,
kai ges naious' hieras triodous

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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#86 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:55 pm

I think I see where the issue arises.

F535 (Scholium on Apollonius Rhodius Argonautica 3.1214): Hecate is crowned with an oak branch and snakes. In the Root-cutters Sophocles has the chorus say:

Lord sun and holy fire, sword of Hecate of the roads, which she carries over Olympus as she attends and as she traverses the sacred crossroads of the land, crowned with oak and the woven coils of snakes, falling on her shoulders.


Magic, Witchcraft and Ghost in the Greek and Roman world, Chapter 4: Medea and Circe, Page 83, Oxford University Press, 2002

It's not Apollonius Rhodius who has a chorus but Sophocles who has a chorus in the works. Yet it is referencing 3.1214 from Apllonius Rhodiuus Argonautica where Hekate is rising from the offering pit and the serpents are seen in the oak boughs. Suggesting she is crowned with the (or a) oak branch vice the boughs that were burnt or gathered for the offering fire. Which is why I can't find a chorus for Apollonius Rhodius' Argonautica, there wasn't one.
Can't Never Did Nothing Till It Tried!

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Pleiades
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#87 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:25 pm

monsnoleedra wrote:I think I see where the issue arises.

F535 (Scholium on Apollonius Rhodius Argonautica 3.1214): Hecate is crowned with an oak branch and snakes. In the Root-cutters Sophocles has the chorus say:

Lord sun and holy fire, sword of Hecate of the roads, which she carries over Olympus as she attends and as she traverses the sacred crossroads of the land, crowned with oak and the woven coils of snakes, falling on her shoulders.


Magic, Witchcraft and Ghost in the Greek and Roman world, Chapter 4: Medea and Circe, Page 83, Oxford University Press, 2002

It's not Apollonius Rhodius who has a chorus but Sophocles who has a chorus in the works. Yet it is referencing 3.1214 from Apllonius Rhodiuus Argonautica where Hekate is rising from the offering pit and the serpents are seen in the oak boughs. Suggesting she is crowned with the (or a) oak branch vice the boughs that were burnt or gathered for the offering fire. Which is why I can't find a chorus for Apollonius Rhodius' Argonautica, there wasn't one.

Thanks for the clarification.May there have been a marginal annotation or comment which was applied in reference to Sophocles?

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Pleiades
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#88 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:12 pm

I just read a paper that argues against Hekate's Carian origin with the strongest camp against Anatolia coming from Berg's assertion that the majority of archaeological evidence places her origin on the Greek mainland.
its interesting to see how her(and Medea's) image was changed both through Ovid,Seneca and on pottery and it seems she was known as Isis in Caria according to Grant in Hellenistic Religions Liberal Arts 1953

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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#89 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:33 pm

I think the identification of Hekate with Isis is somewhat of a historical timing issue. In part due to the issue with the spread of the Cult of Isis within the later part of the Roman Empire and how the cult and Isis in particular sort of conflated her with multiple goddesses. In many ways not dissimilar to how the Cult of Mary assumed many of the titles and epithets of Diana and Artemis from Ephesus.

Since Alexander conquered Egypt, then the later Ptolemaic Kingdom's, you see a heavily Hellenistic based and influenced Kemetic cultus system moving out of Egypt. As the Cult of Isis moves it takes on more of a mystery cult and the goddess takes on some of the epithets of various goddesses along with some of the imagery. Yet it isn't until the later Roman period that she really begin's to replace them and perhaps even assume their positions at older sites.

For example the carving of feet at the temple of Hekate at Lagina is one example that have led people to think that Isis was later worshiped at Lagina. Though there is no way of knowing when the Plantae Pedum were actually were carved there.

"The carving of feet onto the steps of the Temple of Hekate in Lagin may have been due to contact with the Cult of Isis. The practice of carving Plantea Pedum as ex-votos at temples was specific to initiates of Isis.." (Circle for Hekate Volume 1: History & Mythology Sorita d'Este Avalonia books, 2017 pg 51

One problem I think with any temple complex is that over time they were re-purposed or re-dedicated as it were. As new Cult's gained importance it was not uncommon to have them take root at older complexes. Many times existing side by side with the existing cult on the same location. The Cult of Isis became more important once the Emperor's embraced it and Lagina was heavily embraced by the Emperor's so it seems logical that Isis would be found there in my opinion. But again we do not know where the carvings were actually done as the Cult existed to as late as the 6th century in parts of the empire.

Archaeological evidence I admit seems to be lacking in Caria but the linguistic evidence is stronger there. Though other's want to place her more in the Thrace area (modern Bulgaria). Still have a few though that hang onto the Hekat and Egypt connection though that seems to have pretty well fallen out of acceptance.

Sorita d'Estes sites the work Isis: Eternal Goddess of Egypt and Rome by Lesley Jackson Avalon Press 2016 for her Hekate to Isis equations. I have not read this work so can not comment on it.
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Pleiades
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#90 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:11 am

Sticking with the Anatolian origin argued by Enchantress earlier,Hekate's Temple at Lagina has some interesting archaeological finds including the presence of large amounts of oak pollen.As one archaeologist pondered :
"Requiring more of an explanation is the large percentages of oak pollen we find within the temple floor which is clearly not an economically tithed plant." Patrick Scott-Geyer Patterns of Worship at the Temple to Hecate at Lagina 2007

Another unusual feature are the carved pillars there which display Acanthus leaves.This plant does not appear in any pollen finds in excavations of the site and is more well known as one of the most common forms of decoration in ancient Greek architecture.Not sure if the specific pillars hosting Acanthus leaves were a later addition after refurbishment.

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