Odd Insights into Hekate

Syncretic Egyptian / Graeco-Roman magic from the collection of texts known as the Papyri Graecae Magicae.
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Silenciumetaurum
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#141 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:10 am

Pleiades wrote:Thats a fair opinion of that particular current though Chumbley,whom I had met and entered into personal correspondence with has held more respect among academics than those who copied him.A scholar himself he drew upon a myriad of ideas from many sources including the artwork of Aubrey Beardsley.In fact it was the artwork itself that was the key to understanding his Azoetia though his overview of it I received at an age at which I could not realistically comprehend it.


:goodpost Yes, I forgot about Beardsley! I find Chumbly fascinating; though, I haven't done enough work to really see Azoetia in a way that would make it relevant to my life. I also encountered it before I was ready for it.

Chumbly, Spare, Crowley, and even Grant were great in their own ways (maybe Grant was greatest for promoting the work of Spare). People who source them tend to be either very responsible scholars of occult lineages and aesthetic currents or opportunists.
“Be like the cliff against which the waves continually break; but it stands firm and tames the fury of the water around it.” — Marcus Aurelius

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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#142 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:12 am

Enchantress wrote:With this Temple of Aphrodite was there any joining with Hekate as was said earlier of Hekate-Artemis? Something else I saw not really of this topic but her husband was Khalkeús and this name means"coppersmith"with him being a God of metalworkers.So this is the same thing they say of Yahweh that he was a God of copper smelting.I dont know which was older the Greek or Hebrew on this.


The only joining I can think of with Aphrodite is actually via Artemis-Hekate. In that capacity it's more of an anti-association in that she would have no power over her in the influence as a goddess of love. So it's sort of an implied association but one I've never seen directly stated as applied to Hekate. Yet that association is more directed at her "Virgin" aspect than anything.

If one looks at the later period that suggests Hecate in Latin lore being the mother of Scylla and perhaps Charybdis then it would seem the influence of Venus (Aphrodite) would be present in some capacity.

Copper is not a metal usually associated with Hekate. The only exception I really know of is not a direct connection 100 percent of the time. It varies depending upon how the lore is written about a particular entity, that particular entity known as the Empusa or Empousa. Lore stares it is one legged, and has a leg being of copper or brass, a shape shifting female creature of the underworld. Some lore says it is under the command of Hekate, other say's it is a daughter of Hekate, while other lore says it is singular, laterr lore says it was a group of entities of that type. Either way it was a shape shifter that seduced and feed on young men.

The only other metal really associated with Hekate would be Brass. You see that when it talks about her wearing her Brazen sandal(s) in the underworld. Yet in that capacity not sure you could say Brass is specifically associated to Hekate or associated to her stay in the underworld only.
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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#143 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:59 am

Silenciumetaurum wrote: Where to begin. For me and, I think, for most people serious about occult study (as opposed to emo LARPing) this entire "current" is suspect. The aesthetic that uses Chumbly-esque language and tries to mimic his AO Spare-influenced art, opportunistic cherry-picking from Kenneth Grant and Crowley, and a generous dollop of anti-cosmic Satanism (in the Temple of the Black Light meets post-Dragon Rouge Asenath Mason sense) just can't past the laugh test. Somebody on this site once called them a bunch of "Darth Vaders." That is exactly right—only Darth Vader at least lived in his own world. These people spin tasteless dreamworlds for fools.

At 10 years old, I'd have been all in. Glad they weren't around when I was at that age. Now it just looks like dark fluff marketing designed to get money to change hands and maybe impressionable and datable people to drop their linen. Unimpressive in the extreme.


I admit I'm rather narrow in what I look at on that site. Yet in many ways it reminds me of the teen satanist stuff I used to see when I was a teen back in the mid to late 70's. Granted it's more detailed and woo woo then what we had back then as we didn't have the net to fall back on.

The profanity and vulgarity as if it adds to the formula in making your separation from things better. Yet it truly reveals the teen influence for us as a mental factor more than anything as a revolt to things. Sort of a reflection back to Paul Huson's Mastering Witchcraft where you recited the Lord's Prayer backwards to totally separate yourself from the influence of Christianity. To undo the indoctrination aspect of religion and such. Yet in their version's it carries the supposed idea of being wronged and angered though no reason is shown so they never truly do get away from it.

In many ways the colors, the layout, etc is very reflective of the 1990's and the glitter wars between the tweens. But it is an interesting read in short doses.
Can't Never Did Nothing Till It Tried!

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Pleiades
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#144 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:19 pm

Silenciumetaurum wrote:
Pleiades wrote:Thats a fair opinion of that particular current though Chumbley,whom I had met and entered into personal correspondence with has held more respect among academics than those who copied him.A scholar himself he drew upon a myriad of ideas from many sources including the artwork of Aubrey Beardsley.In fact it was the artwork itself that was the key to understanding his Azoetia though his overview of it I received at an age at which I could not realistically comprehend it.


:goodpost Yes, I forgot about Beardsley! I find Chumbly fascinating; though, I haven't done enough work to really see Azoetia in a way that would make it relevant to my life. I also encountered it before I was ready for it.

Chumbly, Spare, Crowley, and even Grant were great in their own ways (maybe Grant was greatest for promoting the work of Spare). People who source them tend to be either very responsible scholars of occult lineages and aesthetic currents or opportunists.

Chumbley also contributed some useful articles to.among others,the old Cauldron magazine run by the late Michael Howard,They turn up sometines on auction sites at a price much more reasonable nowadays.If you find any,look out for the issue containing his work on Initiation transmission methods.Looking at your blog,I think you would find that of worth.Sadly I no longer have a copy-if I did or come across it again I would send it to you.
I think he touched on Hekate but my information on this was that he had obtained information from an unreliable source and later wrote it off.It seems the same source provided information he used in Qutub which was published before he could write it out.Whatever Staley found of Kabbalistic worth in that work,Chumbley had confided in Howard(also a member of Cultus Sabbati)regrets it was out there.

Anyway,off topic so back to Hekate.

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Enchantress
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#145 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:53 pm

monsnoleedra wrote:
Enchantress wrote:With this Temple of Aphrodite was there any joining with Hekate as was said earlier of Hekate-Artemis? Something else I saw not really of this topic but her husband was Khalkeús and this name means"coppersmith"with him being a God of metalworkers.So this is the same thing they say of Yahweh that he was a God of copper smelting.I dont know which was older the Greek or Hebrew on this.


The only joining I can think of with Aphrodite is actually via Artemis-Hekate. In that capacity it's more of an anti-association in that she would have no power over her in the influence as a goddess of love. So it's sort of an implied association but one I've never seen directly stated as applied to Hekate. Yet that association is more directed at her "Virgin" aspect than anything.

If one looks at the later period that suggests Hecate in Latin lore being the mother of Scylla and perhaps Charybdis then it would seem the influence of Venus (Aphrodite) would be present in some capacity.

Copper is not a metal usually associated with Hekate. The only exception I really know of is not a direct connection 100 percent of the time. It varies depending upon how the lore is written about a particular entity, that particular entity known as the Empusa or Empousa. Lore stares it is one legged, and has a leg being of copper or brass, a shape shifting female creature of the underworld. Some lore says it is under the command of Hekate, other say's it is a daughter of Hekate, while other lore says it is singular, laterr lore says it was a group of entities of that type. Either way it was a shape shifter that seduced and feed on young men.

The only other metal really associated with Hekate would be Brass. You see that when it talks about her wearing her Brazen sandal(s) in the underworld. Yet in that capacity not sure you could say Brass is specifically associated to Hekate or associated to her stay in the underworld only.

I only have the coonection with metal from Khalkeús name but it is strange now we hear of Chumbley here so he was concerned with Cain the Blacksmith in his writing so again we are back to metals!
I was meaning to ask if Hekate was known in Bible lands like Canaan and also was she known by the Phoenicians by another name?
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monsnoleedra
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#146 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:43 pm

Enchantress wrote: I only have the coonection with metal from Khalkeús name but it is strange now we hear of Chumbley here so he was concerned with Cain the Blacksmith in his writing so again we are back to metals!
I was meaning to ask if Hekate was known in Bible lands like Canaan and also was she known by the Phoenicians by another name?


That's sort of difficult to answer. We can speculate that she would be known of in biblical lands due to the exchange of monies and such due to trade and her imagery on coins. The same can be speculated for instance that we can speculate that she would have had a presence at various temple sites in biblical lands dedicated to Hellene divinities. Figure Artemis had temples in Jordan (Jerash) and Egypt (Spiro De Artemis) for Pahket for instance so it's logical to figure Hekate would be found at those temples.

Then her temple at Lagina was well known in the ancient world and had quite a bit of renown. So between the temple and the events at Stratonicea, again she'd be fairly well known through out the ancient world. How well I think would depend upon time frame though.

There is some speculation that the Chaldean Hekate might incorporate many aspects of the Syrian goddess Atargatis. It touches upon the association with serpents, multiple heads or aspects, upper and lower world influences. Don't have all of it right at hand but it is an interesting read and presents a lot of compelling evidence to support the theory.
Can't Never Did Nothing Till It Tried!

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Enchantress
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#147 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:16 am

monsnoleedra wrote:
Enchantress wrote: I only have the coonection with metal from Khalkeús name but it is strange now we hear of Chumbley here so he was concerned with Cain the Blacksmith in his writing so again we are back to metals!
I was meaning to ask if Hekate was known in Bible lands like Canaan and also was she known by the Phoenicians by another name?


That's sort of difficult to answer. We can speculate that she would be known of in biblical lands due to the exchange of monies and such due to trade and her imagery on coins. The same can be speculated for instance that we can speculate that she would have had a presence at various temple sites in biblical lands dedicated to Hellene divinities. Figure Artemis had temples in Jordan (Jerash) and Egypt (Spiro De Artemis) for Pahket for instance so it's logical to figure Hekate would be found at those temples.

Then her temple at Lagina was well known in the ancient world and had quite a bit of renown. So between the temple and the events at Stratonicea, again she'd be fairly well known through out the ancient world. How well I think would depend upon time frame though.

There is some speculation that the Chaldean Hekate might incorporate many aspects of the Syrian goddess Atargatis. It touches upon the association with serpents, multiple heads or aspects, upper and lower world influences. Don't have all of it right at hand but it is an interesting read and presents a lot of compelling evidence to support the theory.

That was very helpful.I think trade would be important like in the Celtic world they knew of other deities and symbols of each others beliefs with the trading of shields coins and swords also some pottery.So they found Ancient Briton swords in graves at Halstatt but no evidence the Britons went there.
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Pleiades
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#148 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:02 am

An interesting observation that can be applied to ancient coinage distribution.In what are thought to be the earliest representatitions of Syrian gods and goddesses in the Roman period, discovery of coinage at archaeological sites often paint a confusing picture.In the case of Syrian coinage a problem is that the coins were misattributed to the mint of Caesarea in Cappadocia when in reality they appear to have been issued for the province of Syria elsewhere.This can be likened to the artefacts of the Celtic period as you observe.

At that time,images of Hadad and Zeus appear to have been interchangeable certainly on Trajan silver.Examples of cultural crossovers can be seen in civic coins depicting on their obverse “Zeus”. This type occurs on Syrian tridrachms of Trajan with the reverse inscription OEAC CURIA CIEROPOLITWN 'of the Goddess of Syria, of the Hieropolitans' The first civic bronze issues of Hierapolis begin with Trajan, and all bear the inscription “of the Syrian goddess” without mention of her male consort.
Lucian, describing the Syrian goddess, likened her to Hera and a host of other deities so it is ceertainly possible As Monsnoleedra points out ideas of Hekate may have spread via coinage even if her image was linked to other deities in the region.

“Atargatis/Dea Syria: Hellenization of her Cult in the Hellenistic-Roman Period?”, in P. BILDE,T. ENGBERG, L. ANNESTAD& J. ZAHLEed., Religion and Religious Practice in the Seleucid Kingdom, Aarhus, p. 151-187

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Enchantress
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#149 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:51 pm

That is really good info! I love this thread I keep reading it to make notes so I will hope more members will keep it going.
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Pleiades
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Re: Odd Insights into Hekate

Post#150 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:50 am

Enchantress wrote:That is really good info! I love this thread I keep reading it to make notes so I will hope more members will keep it going.

Well it seems to have come to an end for now and may slip into a dark corner of the archives.I am lucky to be able to continue discussion elsewhere but yes,there is some interesting information here so its a shame really.

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